"Main" Submarine Classes

[Zachstar]

Just to get some discussion going.

Obviously not all the submarine classes can receive huge amounts of details. Submarines like the 688 and Kilo alone will take lots of effort.

So what is the list your really want to pack on the details and the effort? Please post and discuss!

My list! :2ct:

Los Angeles class (Both)
Kilo (All variants)
Trafalgar class
Type 212
Collins class
Victor class
Seawolf class
Akula class
Virginia class

[Zachstar]

688:

What needs to be said? The primary submarine class of the US Navy. Able to amass in numbers for a large land attack.. Etc..

Kilo:

Primary conventional submarine of the Russian Navy and sold to multiple nations. The "Black Hole" annoyance of passive sonar operations.

It will require ALOT of work for localization. A great effort if you ask me.

Trafalgar:

Uk needs some love! Nuff Said

Type 212:

A seriously advanced and dangerous conventional submarine making use of a powerful AIP system for long stay times under the waves.

This is in my view a MUST for this simulation.

Collins Class:

6 boats active. Yes this class is not very common, However it does give a more Kilo-like operation With MK-48 the main sting.

Victor: The old boat. Needed because of it's use still today and it's obvious difficulty due to age.

Seawolf: Deadly, Quiet, Rare, Expensive, Polar Bear bait! Needed as an effective SSBN and SSGN Hunter. Oh and maybe to give the bears a ride if the cap suddenly melts!

Akula: Obviously... More weapons than you can shake a stick at.

Virginia: The modern submarine of the US Navy. Quite surprising that is was not part of Dangerous Waters.

[TLAM Strike]

Well anything that saw combat or might in the future should be given priority.

Type 209 1200 class SS: Saw combat in Falklands War

Churchill Class SSN: Saw combat in Falklands War

Gato/Balao/Tench class SS Inc Guppy II and Fleet Snorkel upgrades: Saw combat in Falklands War and 1965 Indo-Pak war, Korea, Vietnam and of course "the big one".

Daphne cass SS: Saw combat in 1971 Indo-Pak war.

Stugeon class SSN: Predicessor of 688 and one of the biggest classes of Cold War US SSNs.

Foxtrot class SS: Major class of Soviet Sub, interface could also double for Romeo, Whiskey, Zulu, Golf, HEN, Jullett, and Quebec with minor changes here and there.

[Adm.BleeAnnoyd]

Upholder/victoria classcause I'm a Canuk!

[sonar732]

If the U.S. Navy found interest in the HMS Gotland...how about placing it on the list?

What about the Japanese SS Oyashio? Even the namesake of the class was commissioned in '98 and utilizes a Hughes Q-5/6 sonar system.

I agree with the Sturgeon also. These boats held the line during the later part of the Cold War and gave us numerous intell ops even into the 90's.

I'm also surprised that the SCX team isn't requesting the Alfa.

[Kapitan]

USS Parche reason she is just one of a kind

Vangaurd class SSBN from the UK because they never did model them in SC (main fit) or DW

Scorpene france super glue submarine if its anything like thier cars god help them.

As said the romeo class, what about using the same interface for the ming class?

[Transients]

Upholder/victoria classcause I'm a Canuk!

I'm glad you haven't forgotten that we Brits gave you them!:wink:

[Transients]

RN Astute Class, first boat is still in the basin, but should be a shark!

E11, the boat that ran the Dardanelles in 1915 and almost got sunk by a mine.

[Shadows_Fall]

How about one of these?

-= R U B I N =- (http://www.ckb-rubin.ru/eng/index.htm)
http://www.ckb-rubin.ru/eng/project/submarine/noatompl/img/17a.jpg

[Kapitan]

amur project 1950 if im not mistaken conventional propulsion based on the lada design just come out.

[Transients]

Are those structures amidships SLBM tubes?

[Dr.Sid]

Too small I guess. Would something like VLS on LA.

[Phil21]

Its a VLS. You can read this at the producers website...


The ammunition of the “Amur 950” submarine consists of:

* 10 vertical missile containers with cruise missiles: anti-ship missiles 3М-54E1 and/or missiles 3М-14E against land targets; missile launchers are of universal type;
* 4 torpedo tubes with universal torpedoes (plus 2 extra torpedoes) providing the capability to attack submarine targets or surface targets from close range.

[SpookyMuFu]

what era is this sim in, shouldnt the class of subs be determined by the era?

[Kapitan]

Ive seen a pic of a lada in Dry dock she sprouts 6 x 21inch tubes the amur may only have 4 but it would be on the same lines as the kilo with a fair amount of re loads on the boat 2 doubtful.

[SpookyMuFu]

what era is this sim in, shouldnt the class of subs be determined by the era?

bump..........

[XabbaRus]

I have a model of teh Lada class so modifying it to include VLS shouldn't be hard.

I think Sid could make the sim such that you could select the era you want to play in and you would have access to certain subs and warships...

[Dr.Sid]

I want to have date info for each platform, weapon, maybe even sensor and so on. Such information will be used for automatic mission generators, but you will still be able to create unrealistic scenarios.
In many case unrealistic would even mean more balanced, because let's face it, in the beginning of the cold war the US subs were superior to Russian ones.
Even WW2 subs could be used for fun and for education factor, even if they are practically useless against any subs. But something like 'Periscope down' scenarios could be one.
Btw. recreating scenarios from famous sub movies will be great fun, that is something I like about GTA series. The sim should allow it, I don't doubt we'll have real Red October one day.

[Kapitan]

If you want data on any russian cold war era submarine to date just write a list and il dig it up for you.

[Dr.Sid]

Sure .. but we're not there yet.

[Red Ocktober]

hey Kap... i remember you had a ton of 'real' Russian sub pics...
quick question or three...

1- in the forward port side of a Foxtrot sub control room... i notice there's a door... what does that lead to... radio space? sonar?

2- Typhoon interior shots... got any, in particular, the control room... or any layouts showing how the hulls are arranged...


3- on another topic... would you have, or would you know where i could get any interior pics of a wwII German Type23 sub...

thx

--Mike

[Kapitan]

Yep still got most of them i had to dispose of alot of them so i had to delete my photo bucket account.

1) Ok on the old foxtrots one like the submarine moored near Queen mary it led to the sonar room (its cramped 3 people at a squeeze) on the newer foxtrots 1979 to end date they revamped it a little the sonar station was put in with the CCP and the room was expanded and used as a radio room.

2) will get back to you ASAP ! i believe i do just got to go and hunt them down ! if you can contact linton on subsim he acctually still has a load of files of mine i forgot to pick up but in my files there is a VHS video i recorded about the russian typhoon class submarine (TK20 Severstal to be exact) it shows you near enough everything except the reactor compartment but you do get to see alot of the CCP and other stations, il send him a PM and if you want i can forward you the tape.

3) because not many were built and there are none to my knowlege surviving i dont think theres any about however i will have a look and ask a few people.

May take a day or two just please PM every day to remind me !

[TLAM Strike]

In many case unrealistic would even mean more balanced, because let's face it, in the beginning of the cold war the US subs were superior to Russian ones. I just picked up Norman Polmars Cold War submarines and well the 1st generation Russian nuclear subs (The HENs) could run circles around the 1st gen US nuclear subs (Naut, SW, and Skate.) The November was faster, had higher Horse Power, could dive deeper, was better armed and shockingly due to the use of anacotic (sp?) tiles on both of its double hulls (USN didn't do this until the LA FLT2s because they tended to fall off) was queiter at low speeds than the Skate which was really just a German Type XXI/US Tang with a nuclear reactor and a fleet type lower stern. US and Brit subs of that era did have better Sonars due to their ASW role exspecaly the SSKs.


Even WW2 subs could be used for fun and for education factor, even if they are practically useless against any subs. But something like 'Periscope down' scenarios could be one. Don't forget two US subs from WWII are still in service in the Taiwanise Navy, and Argentia had a US WWII sub durring the Falkalands. Pakistan lost one in the 70's (hit it own mine). :wink:

DBF! :cool:

Well Red I'm not Kapitan but I'll try to help.
1- in the forward port side of a Foxtrot sub control room... i notice there's a door... what does that lead to... radio space? sonar? on the Juliett (based on the Foxtrot) that is the Navagation room.

3- on another topic... would you have, or would you know where i could get any interior pics of a wwII German Type23 sub... I'll scan a copy (just got a HP scaner/printer for only $60, GO ME! :biggrin:) of the cutaway from Cold War Subs of the XXIII. and post it here:
http://www.commanders-academy.com/tlamstrike/Cut_Away_Drawings/
Just give me a few days since I'm working most of the weekend.

[Red Ocktober]

WOW... those were quick replies :you_rock:

BIG THANKS GUYS...

don't rush yourselves... a few days is fine... i've got plenty to do in the interim...

( TLAM... you've got an entire library over there :biggrin: )


--Mike

[Kapitan]

Problem with the russian boats CCP's they have a tendancy to vary and change things i went on board a sovvy DDG a few years ago during the navy day (open to all public) went to the bridge then a year later went on board another vessel same class totaly diffrent layout.

They still have this annoying thing of that looks good we put it here and that will fit over there and hmm this would do well here.

Julliettes are not overly based on foxtrots same systems inside and similar hull form just expanded a bit but layouts vary dramaticaly.

Onboard the akula I (AK barz for example) you find the CCP in the 3rd compartment, but on another boat same class same design the CCP is in the 4th compartment, thats what made submarines like the kursk so difficault to raise because during construction they have a tendancy to move things.

Kursk was 504ft long her sister vorenezh is 507ft long its either someone at the ship yard cant read diagrammes or something in the design has changed (and before we come to how is that possible) take a look at the inline stern shots of two oscars side by side i might have one floating around some where.

The al'fa class submarine test craft was one single submarine on its own yet it formed a class i dont know how but all of its sister submarines are diffrent.

Same with the yankee class and the deltas and the phoons.

The only two submarines to have identicle layouts (classes) are the Kilos and the new lada class and yet they make change to them as well now so ive heard they are planning to re arange the CCP so that they can intergrate the sonar area into the acctual ccp rather than it being seprate as it is on the St petersburg and the new one they building.

[SpookyMuFu]

( TLAM... you've got an entire library over there :biggrin: )


--Mike

yeah, did you see that huge porn collection too??

:smile:

[Red Ocktober]

:biggrin:

--Mike

[TLAM Strike]

WOW... those were quick replies :you_rock:

BIG THANKS GUYS...

don't rush yourselves... a few days is fine... i've got plenty to do in the interim...

( TLAM... you've got an entire library over there :biggrin: )


--Mike

Scan posted.
http://www.commanders-academy.com/tlamstrike/Cut_Away_Drawings/Typexxiii.jpg

[Red Ocktober]

thx Kap... this'll come in useful...

i had a layout of the sub, but i was really looking for some interior photos... these seem to be almost impossible to locate...

i need to know stuff like... if the bulkhead openings were round (like in the type 7) from the control room, or squared (like in the type2 boats)...

right now i'm gonna go ahead and model the interior as a cross between a type xxiii and a type 209 (modern outgrowth of type xiii boats)... but for the most part it'll be conjectural...

ive got a preliminary model of the exterior pretty much set up... still needs a lil detailing and a new trexturemapping,

http://home.att.net/~mikey102/3DRADShaderedType23_2.jpg

but this is gonna be it.

i decided to scale down my sim, at least the first one... i finally got the doom3 visual effects i was chasing, but the logistics of making what i originally planned was getting to be too much, so for the first one i'm going make it a lil less open ended, make the scenarios a lil more single disciplined, and have it based around a smaller sub (trying to do 5 or so cold war era subs in one game was getting too overwhelming)... the type xxiii fits the bill perfectly...

again, thx for the help... if you run across any photos of the insides of the thing, please post em... i'll be checking in on a regular basis...

--Mike

[Kapitan]

most bulkhead hatches are round even on the typhoon.

[Red Ocktober]

for the German Type XXIII !!! :rolleyes:

:biggrin:


--Mike

[Transients]

1- in the forward port side of a Foxtrot sub control room... i notice there's a door... what does that lead to... radio space? sonar?


I'd like to see that. Foxtrot is the only Russkie sub which I've actually been on board (A Foxtrot was on display in London a few years ago.).

Typhoon interior shots... got any, in particular, the control room... or any layouts showing how the hulls are arranged...


Triple hull; what a design! But I bet she steers like a bloody cow!

[Transients]

but you will still be able to create unrealistic scenarios.
In many case unrealistic would even mean more balanced, because let's face it, in the beginning of the cold war the US subs were superior to Russian ones.
.

Are you a big Tom Clancy fan, Sid?

[Kapitan]

I'd like to see that. Foxtrot is the only Russkie sub which I've actually been on board (A Foxtrot was on display in London a few years ago.).



Triple hull; what a design! But I bet she steers like a bloody cow!

typhoon is double hulled and for a sub of her size she is still fairly agile, been onboard alot of russian subs including akulas victor III and alfas foxtrot and stood on the upper deck of an oscar for what they are and thier size they still can keep on the akulas tail they are very monouverable but thier biggest draw back is doing that on the surface.

[Dr.Sid]

Are you a big Tom Clancy fan, Sid?

Does it mean you don't agree ? :smile:

I read submarine, red storm rising, the hunt .. maybe some more. Well I would prefer him against Shakespear, does it make me a fan ?

[OneShot]

Regardless of TC, I think more then one book (Non-fiction) or article states that the Russkies did take their own sweet time to catch up in most areas in regards to submarine technology ... most notably their stealth or lack thereof.

Aside from that, one huge jump forward for them happend thanks to the Walker Spy Ring ... for example.

[Kapitan]

I think the area the russians went wrong is the sensor departments on paper most soviet submarines could out run out dive and stay down longer than the americans they pushed technologys like metalurgy further faster than updating sonar equipment.

thing was also they liked to spend thier money on many classes of submarine such as the charlie victor 3 and delta class now fair to say the SSBN is a stand alone platform but if you intergrate the charlie and victor III to form just one attack submarine unit as was done with the FLT II and III los angeles you have a massivly potent strike force without the need to maintain four or five diffrent classes of submarine, which in the long run saves you alot of money and also the need to employ specific crews for diffrent boats.

although the new SKAT-4A is more sensative towed array system than the TB-31 the display screen is primative hence why the americans have the advantage in detection range, true the akula can detect a 688i at 150 miles but its going to take a sonar operator a long time to find it because theres no history as is the american systems so once its gone its gone the track is lost.

we learnt alot from the soviets and vice versa thier weapons systems like skhval are good and sunburn and shipwreck but again in terms of cost and units needed its not financialy viable.

$500million is spent on the fleet of oscar II's in one year that amount could maintain most of the 688's and the oscar II's number just 12 not 43 like the 688'sits intreaguing to note the diffrent ways both sides approached design and intergration of units.

[OneShot]

... although the new SKAT-4A is more sensative towed array system than the TB-31 [...] the akula can detect a 688i at 150 miles ...I'm curious where you got that? Any hard scientific facts to prove that or is it simple "hearsay" or even better Wikipedia or the promotional leaflet from the systems builder?

Before going totally OffTopic now, how bout starting a new thread alltogether, maybe name it : "Differences in Passive Sonar Arrays between Russian and American modells" ... or something like that. If you have any hardcopy evidence, like published books (non-fiction!) or any reliable internet resources (no wikipedia or any other blog or wiki) please list em there.

Cheers
OS

[Dr.Sid]

I think we can even leave this as this: US have better sensors, Ruskies better subs, better weapons, better vodka (for sure).
Than we can talk about how much Akula has worse detection range compared to seawolf and so on but that would be more balancing then fitting to real-live data. And there is no problem with that, since this is game, not army sim.

[Molon Labe]

I think we can even leave this as this: US have better sensors, Ruskies better subs, better weapons, better vodka (for sure).
Than we can talk about how much Akula has worse detection range compared to seawolf and so on but that would be more balancing then fitting to real-live data. And there is no problem with that, since this is game, not army sim.

Russian torpedoes have always underperformed US torpedoes, and their subs have until recently been substantially inferior to US subs as well. Even now that they've made advances in quieting, they've only caught the 688I, not the Seawolf or Virginia. And with the Seawolf, the only advantage that the Russian's ever had--diving depth and speed--is probably gone too.

Besides, I'm pretty sure good vodka comes from Finland.

[Dr.Sid]

Yeah .. by 'better subs' I mean going deeper, faster. By 'better weapons' I mean better missilies, SHKVAL, subrocs, large salvos.

[Kapitan]

MGK-503-M Skat suite, active/passive: Sonar system has a range of around 18 nautical miles (20.7 miles / 33.3 km). This hull sonar system has both a passive and active system built in. Sonar system can track up to 16 targets at one time.
Pelamida towed array: The system is basically a long and very sensitive sonar system carried behind the submarine on a long cable. Sonar system has a range of around 45 nautical miles (51.8 miles/83.3 km). This towed array Sonar is a passive only sensor system. Sonar system can track up to 24 targets at one time.

this is taken from http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Robotech/Robotech-Vehicles/EBSIS_Delfin_Submarine.htm

we are talking real life arent we? or in game?

[OneShot]

Real Life I'd say and to be honest thats not really a scientific resource you've quoted. Besides, maximum possible range doesn't necessarily mean that it can actually detect its opponent at that distance, just that it can distinguish stuff more or less adequate out to that distance. Anyway, lets agree to the fact that the US and Russkie subs are different and lets discuss those differences once we get there in the game (i.e. things like sonar, damage modell and so on are actually modelled).

[Dr.Sid]

Range values without target specification is completely useless.

[Kapitan]

like i said though oneshot yes you may be able to have a sensor onboard that can pick up another sub at 50 miles but if you cant see it on a display screen properly then your screwed.

[Kapitan]

its all well and good pasting all these links but remember who 90% of the information is done by.

FAS: federation of american scientists
Bellona: again american
wikipedia: american (i suspect)

the russians dont have a habbit of letting thier stuff go easy i personally find americans loosethey like to play it loud and proud but to be honest niether of us know exactly what sensor is capible of what.

true we can throw links and youtube vids at each other till the cow come home but the reality is (cant vouch for you one shot) i havnt yet been there ive never trained in russian sonar ops (unless its DW) SO IN REALITY I ONLY KNOW WHAT I READ AND TOLD.

[Molon Labe]

Publicly available data compiled by agencies such as FAS and globalsecurity are not perfect, but it is still far better than pure speculation. Unless you have an alternate source to cite to, that sort of cynicism is completely useless.

[Kapitan]

Tis very true molon

[Red Ocktober]

well... it's just a 3D game when it comes down to it... simulation or not, as long as there is some semblence of realism... enough to make it engrossing and closer to a sim than to an arcade game.. then i say all is well...

after all... there's quite a few things that i can do in the Microsoft Flight Sim that i would never be able to do in a real plane... and then there are some things that i've done in a real plane that were uncannily recreated in the Flight Sim...

for me, the immersion in Flight Sim comes by way of choosing bad weather destinations (from the AM news reports) and flying em with 'real wx set on) in FS... also, the 3D cockpits (and passenger cabins) add to the visual immersion, which makes it that much closer to being a sim as opposed to just a game... that, along with the close resemblence to real world flying does it for me...

soooo, in short... as long as there is a fair degree of immersion (of one sort or another) for the sub sim, then the info that is put out for public consumption should suffice to make it a compelling experience...

besides... i would say it's up to the individual sub commanders to use whatever he has at his disposal to his advantage... which i guess, in the real world, is what it boils down to anyway in the final analysis...

--Mike

[Dr.Sid]

Yes .. the physics and so must be modeled realistic, because you can now how it should work.
But the sensors and weapons performance is unknown for us, at least in detail. For military sim that would be a problem since they want to train to survive, on the other hand they have the data, so they can do it properly.
For game, if the sonar detection range is 70% of the real one there is little problem, we can't even know that.
Sure we should use any info available. But it's pointless to argue if some sub should get 20% bonus to this or that.

[Transients]

Does it mean you don't agree ? :smile:

I read submarine, red storm rising, the hunt .. maybe some more. Well I would prefer him against Shakespear, does it make me a fan ?

It depends whether you liked the books or not:wink:.

What struck me was that the bad guys in the stories were always so incompetant and backward. The difference in reaction between the Americans and Russians to the nucear attack in The Sum of All Fears was hilarious! Hunt... was his first and best book I reckon, but the Typhoon portrayed looks like some kind of Dark Ages steampunk cattleboat! The real Typhoon is very different. If the real world was that of Clancy's then it's a wonder that any of the bad guys were ever a threat at all!

It seems that it's the other way round with Richard P Henrick. The baddies in his books always have some kmind of supersub.:eek:

[Transients]

typhoon is double hulled and for a sub of her size she is still fairly agile, been onboard alot of russian subs including akulas victor III and alfas foxtrot and stood on the upper deck of an oscar for what they are and thier size they still can keep on the akulas tail they are very monouverable but thier biggest draw back is doing that on the surface.

Sorry, I used the wrong terms for the Typhoon. I meant she has three pressure hulls.

It seems like most modern submarines, since the the Type XXI, handle better dived than surfaced. I guess that's OK because it's underwater that they're designed for. Let the skimmers dominate world above the waves.

[pingjockey]

Hello Gents,
I just found about this site from subsim and well I have tried the latest build of the sim and I have read the list of platforms that is being discussed for inclusion.

I think that some of the platforms that should be included are:

688I: Big difference between the flights of this boat and I have done 2 tours on two different 688I's. This is currently the pinnacle of the sub force but will soon be replaced by Virigina class boats.

Virginia: It is by far the most advanced submarine ever built in America. It is highly versatile and quiet. I know, I served on one.

Kilo: Every 3rd and 2nd world country seems to have one now a days so why not include her.

A victor3, a delta4 and an Oscar would not be bad either. An akula for sure as well.

Also I am a former sonar technican and I would have no problem in helping with accoustic models that would be useful. My last boat was the USS Texas which I was part of the commissioning crew.

Pingjockey

[Dr.Sid]

Welcome aboard. Any suggestions and comments are welcome.

[sonar732]

Also I am a former sonar technican and I would have no problem in helping with accoustic models that would be useful. My last boat was the USS Texas which I was part of the commissioning crew.

Pingjockey

That would be awesome! How about making sure that the sonar is modeled in such a way that we can do turn counts or know how many shafts a craft has by listening to it?

[Dr.Sid]

I plan to do the 'listening part' rather good. The sounds does not have to be realistic, as long as these things can be distinguished, but it wouldn't harm if they are realistic in general. Anyone knows about some public sounds of how different platform sounds in sonar ?

[Zachstar]

ping I thought it was against the rules to discuss sonar ops? Even after retirement..

[Deamon]

3- on another topic... would you have, or would you know where i could get any interior pics of a wwII German Type23 sub...

Ahoy, Mike!

I got pretty decent plans of this boat if you still need them.

[Red Ocktober]

yes... please send em... i'd like to look em over...

right now the big thing i'm wrestling with is whether the openings between the compartments were circular (like in typexxi) or semi rectangular (like in type2)...

when you get a free minute definitely email em to me...

THANKS

--Mike

[Deamon]

yes... please send em... i'd like to look em over...
Alright! Will pack it up and send it over. But I think I don't know your mail anymore.

right now the big thing i'm wrestling with is whether the openings between the compartments were circular (like in typexxi) or semi rectangular (like in type2)...
rectangular :smile:

The compartments don't seemed to be pressure-proof

[Red Ocktober]

rectangular

The compartments don't seemed to be pressure-proof


wow... ya see... i had it all wrong... i had circular bulkhead passthroughs modelled... like the fwd bulkhead in a type7...

i'll email you...

and THANKS again...

--Mike

[Deamon]

wow... ya see... i had it all wrong... i had circular bulkhead passthroughs modelled... like the fwd bulkhead in a type7...
Such small boats will usually not have pressure proof bulkheads and a circular bulkhead would be maybe to wide for such a small boat and possible interfere with all the fittings in there. Rectangular doors are more practical for this boats.

It was the same with the SMU 1. I don't even see how a circular bulkhead would fit into it.

[LoBlo]

How about introducing some experimental or hypothetical classes? I would love to see a French Barracude class sub with nuclear electric drive:biggrin:

[Dr.Sid]

I certainly hope there will be hypothetical classes.
I for sure would like to drive Verne's Nautilus to 14km depth one day .. lol.

[Red Ocktober]

while all that sounds like a lot of fun, i'm sorry to have to let you know that neither nuclear powered 'cudas or nemo naultiluses are in the current plans...

the reason i've even considered the end of the war type xxiii is bcause it would be easier to do a game/sim with a smaller sub... one with only two shots... no deckgun... and a relatively small patrol area...

in short... the type xxiii game/sim is being done as sort of a prelude to the more complicated cold war game/sim that i really want to do... a warm up...


meanwhile... i've spent the past month in deep submergence, working out the logic and kinks to the multiplayer code i plan on using... it's soooooo good to see the daylight again...


--Mike

[Dr.Sid]

Do you have some page about that sim of yours ?

[Red Ocktober]

nothing new...

http://home.att.net/~subbase1

new stuff will be posted here 2nd... some commanders here will get a preview of the pre release... whatever form that takes...


--Mike