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OneShot
05-30-2005, 07:58 PM
Taken from : SubSim DW Tactics & Tips (http://www.subsim.com/ssr/tip_dangerwaters.html)

The bow sonar only picks up higher frequency ranges, so detecting subs and warships with this will be difficult. Even though this was mentioned in the old 688i game, it would appear they 'relaxed' the parameters to where it would pick up anything. Based on that I thought something was wrong in the new game. I went back and created a mission with a speedboat instead of a warship and presto, the bow array did indeed pick it up. User error, as usual. It is much harder to detect contacts, but is probably more realistic and more challenging which is fine.


There are no numbers on the Akula bearing Indicators for the inner arrays. You must refer to the numbers on the outer edge of the display.

Be aware that when you turn Ownship your towed array does not begin to turn until it reaches the point in the ocean where the ship began its turn. As a result, Ownship appears as a contact on the towed array during turns.

Ownship’s speed can affect your ability to detect contacts in Narrowband. When the entire signal line is near the top of the display this indicates that background noise is very high. This usually happens when your speed is over 5 kts for hull array contacts or over 15 kts for towed array contacts. Decrease your speed to reduce water flow over the array.

Straight lines indicate a consistent signal. Curved or wavy vertical lines represent distortions or variations in the signal.

If the signal is weak you may have to click more than once to designate the contact and assign the tracker.

You cannot assign a tracker while the game is paused.

If the contact that you have classified in Narrowband has not yet been assigned a Contact ID (S1, S2 etc), a contact ID symbol does not exist for that contact on the Nav map. You can not complete the contact classification process on the Nav map until the contact has been assigned a Contact ID.

You can classify contacts in ESM, Stadimeter and Narrowband. The Classification dialog highlights the name of the class that was most recently classified by one of these sensors whenever you select that contact on the Nav map.

Turns per knot for military and civilian ships are found in USNI Reference. Click CIVILIAN in the Country column then the name of the ship type to find TPK information on Civilian ships.

To stop the transmission of continuous active sonar pings on any of the submarines, click again on the TRANSMIT button

Due to varying water temperatures at locations around the world, a distinct thermal layer is not always present.

People complaining about the auto-crew picking up contacts that you can't see in the waterfall. Well they may not show up graphically, but if you scan the bearings, you will get a small signal-to-noise hit of 4 to 8 or so. This is a potential contact even though it doesn't come through on the speakers, doesn't show a line in ITA, and can't be classified in narrowband. S/N is shown in the Seawolf on the right numerical data display, can't remember off hand if/where it is on the Akula or 688i. by Paul Tobia

"I was playing "Iran the Straits" last night and things were going fine when all of a sudden my towed array started showing bright background noise as if I were moving at high speed, which I wasn't. The bow sonar didn't display this noise. In the narrowband sensors, it kept pulsing between high-noise and low-noise readings but eventually settled on high-noise." The game models physics very carefully. In shallow water at low speeds your towed array can actually drag the bottom and cause the phenomenon above. Retract it some, gain speed, or change your depth.





Sonar: Broadband

Broadband is the default sonar function. It is used to detect and track broadband frequency noise emanated from surface ships and submarines. Biologics such as whales and shrimp can also be detected in broadband.


Sonar: Narrowband

The Narrowband function is used to detect and track narrowband frequency noise emanated from surface ships and submarines. The Narrowband Station is also used to classify contacts. The sound signature of a selected contact is compared to a library of known sound signatures. Only sources with similar signatures are presented to help determine the most likely sound source.


Sonar: DEMON

DEMON is an acronym for Demodulated Noise (DEMON). The DEMON Station is used to determine the contact’s speed. Here you can also determine the number of blades on the contact’s propeller, which can help you classify the contact.


Sonar: Active

In Active Sonar, a ping or a series of pings is transmitted. The resulting echoes from an object are used to determine that object’s bearing and range.


Sonar: Active Intercept

The Active Intercept Display provides information on an entity that is transmitting active sonar pings. It gives information on the transmitting entity’s bearing, the interval between pings, the age of the last signal, and the signal strength. Knowing the signal strength might also assist you in determining the relative proximity of the active sonar source.


Sonar: SSP

The Sound Speed Profile (SSP) displays the speed at which sound is transmitted at various depths in the ocean at your current location. Water tends to form distinct layers of density. These layers affect sonar transmissions. Knowing the location of the layer in your area is important since the layer can affect your ability to detect enemy ships and subs and also helps you hide from them.



Sonalysts Game Design Notes:

The passive sonar modeling in Dangerous Waters was modified from 688I in an
effort to upgrade the sonar detection and classification performance. Sub
Command models the individual variables in the passive sonar equation:

Passive Sonar Signal Excess = Radiated Noise - Propagation Loss - Interfering Noise - Recognition Differential


1. Radiated Noise is the initial source level of the signal that emanates
from the contact. Broadband radiated noise varies with speed, narrowband
radiated noise does not.

2. Propagation Loss is the amount of loss the source signal sustains as it
travels from the contact to the sonar. Dangerous Waters calculates proploss on
the fly, accounting for the loss due to interaction of the signal with the
acoustic boundaries (surface, bottom, and thermal layer) and the
attenuation loss of the signal as a function of range.

3. Interfering Noise is a combination of background noise (sea state, rain,
shipping density) and self noise (noise emanating from the detecting ship)
that is a function of own ship speed..

4. Recognition Differential is how well a sonar system can differentiate a
signal from the background noise. Dangerous Waters models separate sonar
Recognition Differentials depending on sonar type and model.

All these variables are modeled in Dangerous Waters to determine whether or not
to display a signal on a sonar screen, and how brightly to display the signal.

Broadband radiated noise varies by platform class, and is adjusted for
target speed. Broadband radiated noise values are modeled for
representative frequencies in the 2 kHZ - 4kHZ range.

Narrowband radiated noise is modeled by assigning a narrowband profile to each
appropriate platform - 5 discrete narrowband frequencies. The 5 discrete narrowband
lines range in frequency from 50 Hz - to - 2 kHZ. All U.S. built ships
will have a 60 HZ lines because the U.S. uses 60 cycle electrical
equipment. The rest of the world uses 50 cycle electrical equipment, so
their narrowband profile will have a 50 HZ line.

Low frequency signals propagate through water with much less loss than do
high frequency signals. Therefore, in most cases the best/initial
detection sensor will be the detection of narrowband lines on the towed
array. The window at the top of the Narrowband Station allows the user to
perform a narrowband search. Even though a signal is not visually apparent
in the search window, moving the cursor through all the bearings may
discover a narrowband contact line that will then be displayed in the
middle window. This occurs because the sonar system is able to pull a
signal out of the noise. This is the systems Recognition
Differential. This is the reason why an auto Sonarman will report a
contact that the player does not visually see on the Broadband screen.

The lower frequency lines will be detected first as the range between ships
closes, and the brightness of the lines will depend on the calculated
Signal Excess. The Broadband Station will generally detect after detection
has been made on the Narrowband Station. Towed arrayed broadband will
detect first over the spherical and cylindrical arrays because of it's
lower frequency band and better recognition differential. However,
spherical and cylindrical array detections eliminate the problem with the
ambiguous towed array detection.

The environmental inputs for each mission have a major effect on the sonar
detection performance. The inputs are environmental profile type (surface
duct, convergence zone, bottom limited), bottom type (rock, mud, sand), and
sea state (0-5). The depth of the water is also a major factor. These
inputs are available in the mission editor.

RedDevil
12-24-2005, 03:13 AM
Any idea where I can find a collection and comparison of speed and sonar data for all the subs?
-Like best running speed for passive sonar: hull, cone, towed. Akula, 688, SW
-Max speed before washout of hull, cone, towed passive sonar.
-Detection ranges for passive.
-Detection ranges for active, max speed before washout of active.
-Periscope, surface, "Bridge surface", ESW, venting depths etc...
-Weapons ranges, depth.
-A speed to noise curve for all subs, and which depths (I know this is out there as some mods have edited this without revealing the actual values.), so I can figure out how fast I can go and know how far I am radiating noise.
-Average detection ranges of "torpedo in the water" at default speeds
-The range at which flooding and opening tubes can be detected.

Also some sonar info for the bouys, dipping, and frigate would come in handy.


Has anyone collated all this data together, or is this one of those things that people don't like to advertise?

If no one already has, and you guys can get me some playtest data, I can quickly whip up a handy sheet for each playable platform.

Good article btw, and cheers!

Molon Labe
12-24-2005, 03:41 AM
Any idea where I can find a collection and comparison of speed and sonar data for all the subs?
-Like best running speed for passive sonar: hull, cone, towed. Akula, 688, SW
-Max speed before washout of hull, cone, towed passive sonar. Top speed before washout off the top of my head: Cylindrical/spherical: 12 knots, hull: 8 knots, conformal: 6 knots, Pelamida: 7 knots, Pelamida II (LW/Ami): 10 knots, TB-16: 16 knots, TB-23: 14 knots (LW/Ami), TB-29: 15 knots


-Detection ranges for passive.
-Detection ranges for active, max speed before washout of active. detection ranges vary with sonar conditions. Washout for active is 15 knots with the FFG, subs are probably similar



-Periscope, surface, "Bridge surface", ESW, venting depths etc...
-Weapons ranges, depth. RTFM


-A speed to noise curve for all subs, and which depths (I know this is out there as some mods have edited this without revealing the actual values.), so I can figure out how fast I can go and know how far I am radiating noise. See Amizaur's charts for DW 1.01+hofix (probably valid for 1.02 and 1.03 beta as well) The LW/Ami mod comes with its own charts.

http://www.orionwarrior.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48



-Average detection ranges of "torpedo in the water" at default speeds 1.01: I've heard around 40nm. 1.03b: just slightly before the signal can be detected, I think. Generally, you will not get a TIW unless you're on the right side of the layer.



-The range at which flooding and opening tubes can be detected. Never have seen it. I know for a fact the doors could be heard in SC though, so its got to be modeled in DW. Hella close.



Also some sonar info for the bouys, dipping, and frigate would come in handy.


Has anyone collated all this data together, or is this one of those things that people don't like to advertise?

If no one already has, and you guys can get me some playtest data, I can quickly whip up a handy sheet for each playable platform.

Good article btw, and cheers! Bleh, we don't keep too many secrets.

RedDevil
12-24-2005, 03:50 AM
Aye, I already have the Weapons range, and depth data from the manual. What I was wondering is if there was already a complete document that compared all this data, and the manual data.

Cheers,
RedDevil.

P.S. I have already started a general data sheet for all the subs including the information you just provided. Right now the sonar data is all the same for all the subs, which I gather is not correct, but the best I can do atm.

Molon Labe
12-24-2005, 03:56 AM
check the "playable submarine weapons table" in the Reference Charts link above.

RedDevil
12-24-2005, 04:27 AM
Yep got that too! Basically its the sonar statistics that I need now to complete the guide. I also found a max-speed/depth before cavitation table that I will include for each sub.

Still need that sonar data though: Range, best speed, max speed, frequency range, range to detect tubes flooding/equil./opening, range to detect a launch etc....

And I still need a speed/noise table for the subs to know how noisy each sub is at what speed, in a standard water condition.

Molon Labe
12-24-2005, 02:53 PM
Yep got that too! Basically its the sonar statistics that I need now to complete the guide. I also found a max-speed/depth before cavitation table that I will include for each sub.

Still need that sonar data though: Range, best speed, max speed, frequency range, range to detect tubes flooding/equil./opening, range to detect a launch etc....

And I still need a speed/noise table for the subs to know how noisy each sub is at what speed, in a standard water condition.

"Best" sonar speed will be the speeds I've listed and anything below, but I'd take the hull array with a grain of salt, that one I'm not sure about.

Amizaur had charts made for NL's of all the playable subs, that was what I posted the link above for. The LW/ami mod includes a chart for the subs under their changed levels.

Lane
12-24-2005, 05:53 PM
Question? About TA? on sub's in shallow water were I lot of mission start.
With the TA fully extended and the BB get's real noisey with low speed
say 3 or 4 kts is that a good sign the TA is dragging bottom? Is it best to retract it. How does a TA dragging bottom act?
Thank's for any info
Lane

Molon Labe
12-25-2005, 12:13 AM
Massive washout.

Yeah, retract or increase speed.

RedDevil
12-26-2005, 12:19 PM
So I went ahead, found DWEdit, and compiled a comparative list of the usable platforms myself! Some real interesting data in there, but some big surprises as well. If there is demand for it, I could post up the graphs for the comparative "Speed to Sound Generated" for all the subs. With this graph, you will know how much sound you are making in a comparative, NOT absolute fashion, with the other subs traveling at the same speed. (Kilo's are REALLY quite, even at flank, but noisy as hell when running diesels.)

I also have a tabular format table for all the sonar sensors of all the subs, including max operation speed, frequencies detected, "descrimination" (or backround noise filtering), and the detection curves (numbers that generate max range).

Here is where I got the surprising results. For the towed arrays, the 688/SSN21 can both opperated theirs at 20+knt speeds, while the Akula's is set to wash out at 10knts!! I am wondering if this is historically accurate, or if this is a simple typo that got by the devs. Or is it the case that American towed arrays were this massively more advanced than Russian counterparts??

LuftWolf
12-27-2005, 07:34 PM
No one knows for sure about the sensor washouts (that information is highly classified for both the Russians and the Americans), but that has been a feature of the Sonalysts games since Sub Command, and certainly "feels right."

In any case, it's what we have all been playing with and accepted, as I've never heard anyone think to challenge it that I can recall so, I guess it is "correct". :smile:

My best guess is that it is a reasonable approximation of the real life capability differences between the Russian and American sonars.

RedDevil
12-28-2005, 01:36 AM
Still interesting though, since all the rest of the American and Russion sonar systems have identicle washout speed for hull, active, nose etc... The ONLY one that is way out of wack is the Russian Towed, which is half the speed of the American version. Though I really know nothing of American/Russian capabilities, this really doesn't add up, from a logic POV.....

LuftWolf
12-28-2005, 12:12 PM
Well, one thing I've learned from real sonar operators is that logic and sonar don't always agree. :smile:

In terms of array geometry and engineering it's not entirely unplausible that this would be the case.

The sphere is in a place on the submarine that is designed to minimize flow and ownship noise. The hydrodynamic forces that cause sphere washout are from the hull surface, and are therefore similiar between American and Russian platforms. It is the same with the hull sonars, which are in a worse place for flow and ownship noise.

The TA's are engineered in a totally different way than the sphere and hull sonars, and the Russians were a bit late in fielding one in a combat submarine if I understand the history correctly. I believe the differences between Western TA's and Russian TA's are much greater than the differences between Western Sphere/Hull and Russian Sphere/Hull. So comparing the sonars on a one-to-one basis across type and country doesn't necessarily make sense, since the factors that limit their performance are totally different; for the sphere/hull arrays it is primarily the design of the hull surface under which the sonar surface resides, and for the TA's it is the design of the array itself that influences washout speed.

Note, I'm far from an expert, I'm hardly even an amateur, so I could be totally wrong of course, but I do know that the way things are now are good for gameplay, in my opinion, and no one has raised objections to this setup, so we tend to think it works.

RedDevil
12-29-2005, 08:11 PM
Sure, and I don't want to rock the boat. It seams that there really isn't that much of a need to be going much faster than 5knts anyways when you are trying to detect. If you need to get somewhere fast, you will probably be sprinting-stop-sprinting anyways.

But as far as flow geometry goes, we're talking about the Russians which make amazingly fast toredo's and even understand how to make underwater rockets. I think they know very well how water flows.

And the only reason I think that this might be an error is that Srd in all the Towed array fields is -10, and the Palemida is the "last" towed array. I could easly imagine someone pasting in all the standard values on the towed arrays going.

-10
23
10
23
10
25
10
*10

By accident putting 10 in the .obj code, then compiling. The testers would never notice the difference unless for some reason they like cruising around in a sub at 15+knts just for kicks.

Just asking if its a simple overlooked typo is all.

Cheers,
RedDevil.

LuftWolf
12-29-2005, 09:20 PM
It's just that everytime I hear something new that's wrong with DW nowadays I'm genuinely surprised, I thought I had heard everything.:mob:

:slap:

:redface:

:smile: :smile: :smile:

I don't think it's a typo. And don't mind my humor. :smile:

TLAM Strike
12-30-2005, 12:31 AM
Well, one thing I've learned from real sonar operators is that logic and sonar don't always agree. Sonar: Where science converges with voodoo. :wink:



Sure, and I don't want to rock the boat. It seams that there really isn't that much of a need to be going much faster than 5knts anyways when you are trying to detect. If you need to get somewhere fast, you will probably be sprinting-stop-sprinting anyways. Have you ever conducted a high speed hit and run attack on an invasion force over the span of 7 hours with an average sonar search speed of 20 knots covering about 200 miles of ocean engaging and sinking multiable enemy warships including carriers and ASROC armed destroyers?

Have you ever dogfighted with an enemy SSKs at ranges of around 2000 yards at speeds of 10 to 15 knots?

5 Knots is good if you’re trapping someone but not when you’re hunting.



But as far as flow geometry goes, we're talking about the Russians which make amazingly fast toredo's and even understand how to make underwater rockets. I think they know very well how water flows. Well underwater rockets (Shkvals) really has to do with how air flows since its a rocket operating in a air cavity.

RedDevil
12-31-2005, 08:57 PM
TLAM: Hahaha, sorry mate, I have never talked to someone alive who has even been in a submarine before! Further my only military experience was a quick stint in my local Primary Armoured Reserve unit here; the British Columbia Dragoons. However, this game has a tight grip on me, as the logic, math, and problem solving aspects of it are like a wet dream to me!

If my idea of tactics seam very uneducated to you, then well, you are right! Basically, this game has sparked my interest in science of the Navy, and I am absorbing information at a huge rate, and constantly hunger for more. Though I think I understand theory very well, I am quite niave when it comes to what the worlds navy actually has accomplished, and is currently using :eek:

I will disagree with you on your point that underwater rockets have more to do with air flow than water flow. Supercavitation is a hydrodynamic area of study. Most of the aerodynamic considerations of rockets have already been hammered out; it's the manipulation of water flow, and the understanding of vapour pressures that need to be figured out for supercavitation. This is firmly in the realm of hydrodynamics and projectile physics.

Case in point: A SC Rocket fired at 30m below the surfice of the water needs to fight against water pressure of 395.5246 kPa (100kPa is sea level atmosphere pressure.) to generate a bubble of boiling water at temperatures > 150C. In practice it will need to be designed to force open a water pocket at much higher pressures than the minimums at operating depths so that it does not constantly "collapse-reform" crushing the rocket. Fire the same rocket at 400m depth, the airbubble needs to be formed at pressures 4100kPa, and temperatures > 350C !! If you don't understand the fluid dynamics of water, which are vastly differant than those of air due to factors such as hydrogen bonding and inability to compress the liquid, you will have no clue as to what force of thrust, design of cone, and methods of stabilization are needed to maintain the water vapour pocket! Only after that do you even need to consider the specifications of the rocket needed to perform in a hot, damp, high pressure environment.

TLAM Strike
12-31-2005, 10:00 PM
TLAM: Hahaha, sorry mate, I have never talked to someone alive who has even been in a submarine before! ... You mean... you... like... talk to dead folk? I've never talked to anyone who wasn't alive period. :wink: :tongue:



I will disagree with you on your point that underwater rockets have more to do with air flow than water flow... Well yea, I think it maybe 50/50. They are developing basically a whole new form of missile that needs to maneuver in a moving air bubble (at least on the new ones that can steer.)