Sim10 feedback

[Dr.Sid]

Check out the new version:

Main Page - Community Submarine Simulation (http://www.commanders-academy.com/comsubsim)

Post feedback related to this version in this thread.

As for known technical issues. If you have crashes right after starting the sim, try to disable VBOs in config file.

New features:
* Basics of sonar, broadband waterfall display
* Smarter depth-keeping autopilot
* DSRV with thruster control and special DSRV docking station (note, no actual docking or collisions is implemented yet).
* New model of 688
* Many minor fixes

Also controls have changed a lot, so read controls.txt inside the zip.

Big thanks goes to SpookyMuFu, who custom makes really cool 3d models, this release contains two of them (688 and DSRV).

[Molon Labe]

Looking very good!

I very much like the autopilots and momentum modeling for the subs. The autopilot will noticed that the sub is approaching ordered depth/course and let up on the planes/rudder, and even apply a little bit of force in the opposite direction to stop it on the correct course. Very nice. I like how it does require some force in the opposite direction to stop the rotation. You may want to consult an expert as to whether it's too much or too little, but you definitely have the concept right.

Angular momentum for the torpedo still appears negligible. Maybe for something with a large thrust to mass ratio, this is as it should be... but it was something I noticed.

Sonar looks to be working correctly, but obviously still in its infancy.

Is the division of the sub controls into "holding" inputs and trim controls meant to lead to the "holding" controls provided by a control stick? I don't quite see the benefit of it otherwise.

[LoBlo]

Wow. Coming along nicely. Love the models.

As far as critique. It felt that the propellar thrust was a bit sluggish on the 688. The time it took to go from flank to full stop even with emergency reverse going seems a little prolonged.

:2ct:

[Dr.Sid]

Is the division of the sub controls into "holding" inputs and trim controls meant to lead to the "holding" controls provided by a control stick? I don't quite see the benefit of it otherwise.

I think this is more useful. It's essential for fine control like DSRV docking, but it's useful even for normal depth keeping. I mean the fact controls center after you release it. Still there is no big problem to make some controls with centering, some without it, or it can even be user option. Still you can always just hold CTRL and it works as before.

As for depth autopilot, I'm planing to make 'Features' section on WIKI where I will describe it in better detail.



It felt that the propellar thrust was a bit sluggish on the 688. The time it took to go from flank to full stop even with emergency reverse going seems a little prolonged.

Will look into it.

[212Alpha]

A new Version with Eastereggs :smile:

Big THX to Dr. Sid

Going to like the DRSV. Awaiting the Version with collisions :biggrin:

[Dr.Sid]

Btw. found bug:

- when switching to sonar station after long time (for example when using time compression), it takes up to several seconds to redraw. Must check it out.

[Molon Labe]

Oh, that reminds me. Maybe this is related to the designed refresh rate, but my FPS was horrible at the sonar station (including the DSRV-type sonar station). I'm managing about 30-35 on the 3D view (which is quite good for my rather crappy system) to single digits at sonar.

[Bartolomeus]

Oh yes...a new version. That`s great Dr. Sid.

I like the integrated autopilot and the new sonar and DSRV controls. Great work on the new features.

And Scott`s models looking very good.

Thx for the work!

Marko

EDIT: For the next version, iam hoping for a higher resolution (1280x1024 or higher). That would be nice.

[Red Ocktober]

love the passive sonar screens... great job on the models guys...

ballasting and planes still don't seem right, but i'm sure they'll come together as things progress...

looks like we'll be patrolling the world fighting those silent wars i've been hearing so much about soon... :biggrin:


--Mike

[Dr.Sid]

Oh, that reminds me. Maybe this is related to the designed refresh rate, but my FPS was horrible at the sonar station (including the DSRV-type sonar station). I'm managing about 30-35 on the 3D view (which is quite good for my rather crappy system) to single digits at sonar.

Hm .. that is strange. Sonar itself is not much CPU intense, much less GFX intense. What exactly is your hardware ?

As for the full-screen resolution: you can change it in cfg file.
Edit: no you can't .. ie it will be ignored. Another bug in this release. I will make bug-fix release in week or so. For now, maxing the window must be enough.

[Molon Labe]

Hm .. that is strange. Sonar itself is not much CPU intense, much less GFX intense. What exactly is your hardware ?

As for the full-screen resolution: you can change it in cfg file.
Edit: no you can't .. ie it will be ignored. Another bug in this release. I will make bug-fix release in week or so. For now, maxing the window must be enough.

It's a standard PCI nVidia 5200FX, IIRC. It's definitely obsolete.

[Dr.Sid]

Ah .. that's bad .. I will have troubles finding something similar .. anyway I tray to incorporate some simple profiling, so I have at least rough idea what is the problem.

[goldorak]

Oh yes...a new version. That`s great Dr. Sid.

I like the integrated autopilot and the new sonar and DSRV controls. Great work on the new features.

And Scott`s models looking very good.

Thx for the work!

Marko

EDIT: For the next version, iam hoping for a higher resolution (1280x1024 or higher). That would be nice.


^^^^ what Bartolomeus said. We would like the option to set higher resolutions, up to 1600x1200 with the possibility to render fullscreen or in windowed mode. And please Dr. Sid could you add in game controls for choosing the antialiasing and anisotropic levels ?
Also gamma control is important.
Oh by the way it be nice to have spookymufu's russians subs in a future version. :biggrin:
Have you thought about adding a little bit of eye candy such as pixel/shader based water ? And HDR (high dynamic range) support ? These last two options obvioulsy toggable so people can choose to enable or disable based on performance.
Danger of the deep is an open source ww2 simulator, they have astounding water. Why don't you ask the developers if you could use that code for rendering the water in comsubsim. :tongue:

[Dr.Sid]

As I said, fullscreen is already supported (Alt+enter), except now the values for resolution are not read from the config file because of bug (already fixed, bud not released).

As for the water. Sure I want cool water. But it is of very low priority on my list. On the other hand I want to make it myself, because it's going to be fun. But sure I will ask, advice is always good.

[Molon Labe]

I have a follow-up question.

Are the "trim" controls meant as an alternate, constant-input control or is it a true trim function, intended to stabilize the sub to correct for currents or forces caused by compromised hydrodynamics (damage)?

[Dr.Sid]

The trims of control surfaces are just center positions of those surfaces. Nothing more.

Trim in submarines is generally related to trim tanks. They are used to set perfect balance between buoyancy ans weight, and also to set longitudal balance, so the ship (if static), does not descent or ascent, and its pitch is zero and constant. Sub can come out of balance by moving (or removing) crew, weapons or provision, also the density of the water outside the sub can change.

But sub is almost never not static. Small differences in hydrostatic trim may be corrected by control surfaces while moving, with price of more noise and drag (which means for diesel subs also submerged range).

The control surfaces trims have these reasons now:
- they allow old style controlling as 'set without recenter'.
- they allow correction of natural sub pitch-up momentum at high speeds, which is caused mainly by sail. As I heard real subs have this correction already preset in planes design, so if you move the planes at zero there should be no pitching and minimum drag (of course in case you already have good hydrostatic balance).

[LoBlo]

On a random note. It may be more aesthetic to give some inertia to the viewpoint when rotating the camera around the ships. An example would be flight simulator 9 (from microsoft) where whenever you rotate the viewpoint in the 3D/exterior view there some inertia and swing. For some reason it invokes a sense of a true 3D environment imho.

[Dr.Sid]

On a random note. It may be more aesthetic to give some inertia to the viewpoint when rotating the camera around the ships. An example would be flight simulator 9 (from microsoft) where whenever you rotate the viewpoint in the 3D/exterior view there some inertia and swing. For some reason it invokes a sense of a true 3D environment imho.

Haven't seen that. I quite hate such features, as long as it is on mouse. It feels like someone is pulling your hand :smile:. If it's on key's control, some inertia is good, as it allows both fast and precise movements. Will try sometime anyway.

Different thing is camera tracking some moving object (which is not exactly the case in my camera at the moment). Then some inertia makes it look cool, and it's must have for flightsim. Also for cockpit (ah, another funny word) views, gentle view movements based on physics of the head (ie camera) make it more realistic.

[OneShot]

As for inertia and cockpit ... if you include such a function, please make it optional because depending on the extend, as well as some other factors - the person playing your sim might get motion sickness ... and to be frank, that's something I'm not really hot on experiencing (happend to me once, after a rather prolonged session of a fps where your "head" bobs while walking/running - it wasn't fun).

[Dr.Sid]

As for inertia and cockpit ... if you include such a function, please make it optional because depending on the extend, as well as some other factors - the person playing your sim might get motion sickness ... and to be frank, that's something I'm not really hot on experiencing (happend to me once, after a rather prolonged session of a fps where your "head" bobs while walking/running - it wasn't fun).

Sure .. I hate bobbing too .. but mainly because it makes my aim worse :biggrin:.
I only got motion-sick once in game, while plying Descent with 3d glasses .. I was kinda good at Descent, I borrowed the glasses (it was huge helmet actually - how come we don't use them these days ?) .. played my usual 'first level in 60 seconds' .. and then I started to feel sick .. and it was worsening another 30 minutes, when I was not playing at all (hardly sitting).

Back to topic. I fixed the freezes on sonar screen I reported, and I have new slightly fixed 688 model, looking for other bugs. Fix-release could be expected after weekend.

Btw. any of you haven't find the egg yet ? :redface:

[Hitman]

...link broken? :frown:

Unable to download currently :mad:

[Dr.Sid]

Sorry for problems .. the site is unreliable, especially when I do release. At the moment it works again. Will try to establish some mirror.

[Dr.Sid]

It's a standard PCI nVidia 5200FX, IIRC. It's definitely obsolete.

I guess I found it. The problem is most probably upload of the texture into GFX card. Now I do it in very 'bold' way .. every frame, whole sonar screen texture (and all 3 of them on F2 screen). I could upload only the modified lines and only when it was modified. That should make it run a lot faster even on that piece of .. antiquated equipment of yours .. :biggrin:

[Molon Labe]

I guess I found it. The problem is most probably upload of the texture into GFX card. Now I do it in very 'bold' way .. every frame, whole sonar screen texture (and all 3 of them on F2 screen). I could upload only the modified lines and only when it was modified. That should make it run a lot faster even on that piece of .. antiquated equipment of yours .. :biggrin:

I'm surprised you took the effort. Thanks! Just don't bend over backwards too much for antiques. :smile:

[Dr.Sid]

Nah .. this had to be done, it's way too ineffective like this.

[XabbaRus]

The DSRV is fun but darn hard to get submerged.

[Dr.Sid]

The DSRV is fun but darn hard to get submerged.

Hard ? Just hit 'F' and wait few seconds.

[XabbaRus]

I did and it only went down a few feet. I had to dip the nose and power down to meet the 688.

[Dr.Sid]

I did and it only went down a few feet. I had to dip the nose and power down to meet the 688.

I see .. it's possible the vertical drag is a bit too high .. and at the moment all subs are at perfect trim when submerged. I guess DSRV has some trim tanks (I mean for rise/dive balance), which will help it.
DSRV for sure has special pitch and list trim tanks, which use mercury (which means it's closed circuit which means it's useless for dive/rise balance). It can achieve angles from -30 to 30 degrees in both pitch and list without use of thrusters, so it can dock easily for subs lying on the bottom at an angle.

[SpookyMuFu]

all I do is set depth, move at 3+knts and hit F and it goes right down.......now....:)

[Dr.Sid]

I've release 10b which fixes few known bugs of Alpha 10:

-Faster drawing of sonar screen
-Yet improved 688 model
-Fixed loading of config file (which means you can set any resolution for full screen you want).

Especially for MolonLabe, I'm curious if this helps your problem (I couldn't really test it).

Link is here:
Main Page - Community Submarine Simulation (http://www.commanders-academy.com/comsubsim)

[Hitman]

Still unable to download (server not found) :mad:

Couldn't you upload it to a file sharing web? :frown:

[Dr.Sid]

Strange, because the site works now.

anyway .. RS link is here (free, 10 downloads only):

RapidShare: Easy Filehosting (http://rapidshare.com/files/223569939/sim10b.zip.html)

And here is local mirror at CADC:

http://www.commanders-academy.com/dr_sid/sim10b.zip

[Hitman]

Many thanks, downloading already :biggrin:

Is there anythings special you want feedback about? Normally I concentrate my testing physics, although I'm no expert in subs or big vessels I have sailed in sailboats so I have more or less an idea of how a ship responds.

[Dr.Sid]

I want to know whatever you think I should know ..

[Bartolomeus]

Thx for the updated version. It is nice to set the screen resolution manually.

Marko

[Molon Labe]

Sonar station speed is about the same, low single digits.

Took the DSRV out for a spin. I really like the animated thrusters. Something I noticed was that the 688 I was "rescuing" seemed to accelerate out from under me. Is there some sort of hydrodnamic force the DSRV is generating that's moving the 688 around?

[XabbaRus]

Well I can't really add anything apart from it works great.

I'm just looking forward to a collision model now so that we can dock the DSRV and have a good thud when it lands on the deck.

[OneShot]

Took the DSRV out for a spin and its really fun to try and dock to a sub. Sort of like a game in the game to steer the DSRV from its station to hit the escape hatch with the collar.

I imagine in the future (when everything is done) that gamewise it would be cool to have a DSRV rescue mission ... the autopilot of your DSRV takes you within 20 yards or so of the sub (you wanna rescue) and you have to dock manually ...

[Dr.Sid]

Sonar station speed is about the same, low single digits.

Took the DSRV out for a spin. I really like the animated thrusters. Something I noticed was that the 688 I was "rescuing" seemed to accelerate out from under me. Is there some sort of hydrodnamic force the DSRV is generating that's moving the 688 around?

No such force is simulated. I guess the 688 is simply slowly moving. Best is to send the target sub to bottom. Hitting F with zero speed at shallow water will do just that, if you give it some time.

I'm really curious about the slow sonar. I will add some profiling support into next release, so I can see what exactly is slow.

[Shadows_Fall]

I've noticed that turning the night vision on or off slows the time acceleration. Was this an intended feature?

[Dr.Sid]

I've noticed that turning the night vision on or off slows the time acceleration. Was this an intended feature?

ROFL .. good one ! Missing break statement in case, so the N key also lowers time compression. Not intended of course :biggrin:
Fixed for next release.

[TLAM Strike]

Nothing shows up on the sonar screen on my computer.

Computer Stats:

--------[ EVEREST Home Edition (c) 2003, 2004 Lavalys, Inc. ]-----------------------------------------------------------
Version EVEREST v1.51.195
Homepage cPanel® (http://www.lavalys.com/)
Report Type Quick Report
Computer UGM109D
Generator Admin
Operating System Microsoft Windows XP Professional 5.1.2600 (WinXP Retail)
Date 2009-04-26
Time 16:39

--------[ Summary ]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer:
Computer Type ACPI Uniprocessor PC
Operating System Microsoft Windows XP Professional
OS Service Pack Service Pack 2
Internet Explorer 6.0.2900.2180 (IE 6.0 SP2)
DirectX 4.09.00.0904 (DirectX 9.0c)
Computer Name UGM109D
User Name Admin
Motherboard:
CPU Type Intel Celeron D, 2400 MHz (18 x 133)
Motherboard Name Unknown
Motherboard Chipset VIA VT8751(A) ProSavageDDR P4M266(A)
System Memory 1024 MB (DDR SDRAM)
BIOS Type Award (03/30/05)
Communication Port Communications Port (COM1)
Communication Port Communications Port (COM2)
Communication Port ECP Printer Port (LPT1)
Display:
Video Adapter NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440 with AGP8X (64 MB)
3D Accelerator nVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440 with AGP8X
Monitor Plug and Play Monitor [NoDB] (KNAA0500423)
Multimedia:
Audio Adapter Creative SB Live! Value (CT4780) Sound Card
Audio Adapter VIA AC'97 Enhanced Audio Controller
Storage:
IDE Controller VIA Bus Master IDE Controller
SCSI/RAID Controller Promise Technology Inc. Ultra IDE Controller
Disk Drive WDC WD400BB-00FJA0 (37 GB, IDE)
Disk Drive WDC AC313500D (12 GB, IDE)
Disk Drive USB Flash Memory USB Device (980 MB, USB)
Optical Drive LG DVD-ROM DRD8160B (16x/48x DVD-ROM)
Optical Drive Optiarc DVD RW AD-7200A SCSI CdRom Device
SMART Hard Disks Status OK
Partitions:
C: (NTFS) 12935 MB (3097 MB free)
E: (NTFS) 38154 MB (9615 MB free)
Input:
Keyboard Standard 101/102-Key or Microsoft Natural PS/2 Keyboard
Mouse PS/2 Compatible Mouse
Network:
Network Adapter VIA Compatable Fast Ethernet Adapter
Peripherals:
Printer HP Photosmart C4200 series
USB1 Controller VIA VT83C572 PCI-USB Controller
USB1 Controller VIA VT83C572 PCI-USB Controller
USB1 Controller VIA VT83C572 PCI-USB Controller
USB1 Controller VIA VT83C572 PCI-USB Controller
USB2 Controller VIA USB 2.0 Enhanced Host Controller
USB Device USB Mass Storage Device

[LoBlo]

This is a random thought Dr. Sid. But have you ever thought about linking up the the Global Conflict 2 folks?

[goldorak]

This is a random thought Dr. Sid. But have you ever thought about linking up the the Global Conflict 2 folks?

Why ? A project such as this one to keep going has to be very focused. Once you try throwing in everything including the kitchen sink you' ve paved yourself a road to disaster. The 2 projects are so very different in scope that it doesn't make any sense at all to combine them.

[XabbaRus]

I think Sid has ideas similar to GCB further down the line but I think he wasnt us to have a decent subsim first of all.

[Dr.Sid]

Not sure if I know what you are talking about. I couldn't find anything relevant. Post link please.

[Dr.Sid]

Nothing shows up on the sonar screen on my computer.

Computer Stats:

What versin ? 10 or 10b ?

But man, GeForce4 ? This is museum grade :wink: Still it should work AFAIK.

[LoBlo]

Not sure if I know what you are talking about. I couldn't find anything relevant. Post link please.

Its similar to a Fleet Command or Harpoon type wargame.
Main Page - Gcbluewiki (http://gcblue.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page)

Here's a thought. Its not unusual for wargames to interface with each other, meaning each party is playing its respective game, but they are playing against each other (the games communicate with each other about speed/location/sensors/weapons/etc).

Its probably a long long way off, but its something to dream about.

[Dr.Sid]

Oh .. this one .. as for the scope, there really is some overlap. While I don't like the idea of merging those projects, some kind of discussion or even cooperation could be helpful for sure. I will try to contact them.

[SpookyMuFu]

Video Adapter NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440 with AGP8X (64 MB)

holy crap!!!

that thing was probably Fred Flintstones'!

[TLAM Strike]

What versin ? 10 or 10b ?

But man, GeForce4 ? This is museum grade :wink: Still it should work AFAIK. At the time of that post the lattest one 10B I think.

That card has survived four PCs. Its my lucky vid card.

[AdmBleeAnnoyd]

Almost laid my own easter egg when I found it!!!!

[Dr.Sid]

I hope you are the last one .. I mean this was my first egg, was it tricky to find ? :biggrin:

[AdmBleeAnnoyd]

Nope just gave sim10 a try today....... the DSRV is a riot to play around with..... mmmm seal insertion missions!!!!!!!!

[SpookyMuFu]

Nope just gave sim10 a try today....... the DSRV is a riot to play around with..... mmmm seal insertion missions!!!!!!!!

i like the dsrv too........and the 688 is the best model I've ever seen ;)

[AdmBleeAnnoyd]

modest too I see!

[AdmBleeAnnoyd]

wow an easter egg with sonar........ whats next active homing chicks???????

[SpookyMuFu]

modest too I see!

:biggrin::biggrin:

[Dr.Sid]

wow an easter egg with sonar........ whats next active homing chicks???????

It has even ballast tanks :biggrin: