Opening strategy

[TLAM Strike]

JoGary and me talked about our opening moves today and this is basically what we have planed. An ARG group under escort (FFG, Kilo) will move to take the Panama Canal. P-3s will run Recon to E4 and E5 and run ASW searches there, the same will be done at E3 and possibly F4 next turn. We are concerned that the enemy may also move to take the Canal and we need to locate them before they arrive and damage them before they can attack our landing force.

Another LSD under light/no escort will move to take Riohatcha to secure its CG.

We would like a SSN to mine Bluefields ASAP. Volunteers? Most likely this SSN will be a Seawolf or Akula since its likely that we will need the 688(i)’s VLS tubes to strike at any enemy invasion force heading to the Canal.

The first unit we will most likely built is another P-3.

We are open to any ideas members have.

[JoGary]

Ok i guessing you all got the email with assingments if not i am posting them here to.
Also our fleets homepage password is "wekickass" :redface:
Darksythe if you read this let me know asp what platforms you can play in and what you would like. Or even if posable if anyone else knows what he plays so i can get a the assignments sent to Malon Labe. I have sent him what i have so far but he will be needing one for Darksythe to. Assignments are as below

Edited to add Darksythe.
Platform Player Assigned
SSN-22 Connecticut JoGary
SSN-752 Pasadena Darksythe
SSN-754 Topeka Morgan
K-331 Narval Piervit
B-459 Vladikavkaz TLAM Strike
FFG-57 Reuben James
FFG-59 Kauffman
FFG-60 Rodney Davis
P3 1 Swimsalot
P3 2

Also i will be posting a news story in the news section for download. Thanks for that goes to our PR officer Piervit.

Opening Strategy will prob be as TLAM wrote. Idea being that we canot let the Canal base fall into enemy hands with it being so close to our home base. I am guessing the one who can keep hold of the Canl will win the war so i think it should be top priorety. From the canal we can defend our home base and also attack and recon enemy base. It would provide a exelent resuply port for any attack on enemy home base. Also sending a unarmed AOR to Riohacha should not be a problem as it should not encounter any enemy there so early in the war. Also getting hold of Port au Prince would make sense if we have the resources. But Riohacha and Port au Prince should be our main stratefy for first few turn IMO.
Of course this strategy is open for discusion and will be changed if we come up with something better. So please give your thaughts on it and any new thoughts for strategy if you have them.
Capturing the Canal may sound easy but if the enemy has the same idea which i think they will then it could be the main battle that decides the war. I think we should send as strong a task force is possable so we can handle anything the enemy may send. I am hoping they will split their forces and send them to capture some of the bases near them and in so doing will not have the strenth to stop us taking the Canal. But if they see it as importaint as i do then it could be very messy :frown: .
I am thinking of a task force consisting of
1 Seawolf
1 Kilo
1 688 or Akula. (Most likly a 688)
2 FFG
1 LSD
1 AOR
Is this to much? or even to little? Or am i using the wrong platforms?
I amthinking that after capturing the Canal the Seawolf could go on to mine enemy base? Also having a 688 along it can maybe do some TLAM or ASM launches from a stand of range if the P3s searching E4 & E5 spots anything coming towards the Canal.
This would leave a LSD to goto Riohacha and a FFG and DDG to defend our base. Also the P3s would also be able to cover our base to.
A 688 and a Kilo would then be left over. Any idea on how to use them?

[TLAM Strike]

What ever submarines that arn't part of the canal task force should eather be used in a Hunter Killer role or as Comerice Raiders near enemy bases.

[swimsalot]

great thinking so far; include a P3 with any task force for extended surveillance?
have left over subs launch tlams as a diversion?

[Piervit]

My Akula is ready to serve.
If i am not in the task force i can stay in defense or I can try to enter in their harbour for send them mines.

[TLAM Strike]

Having an Akula mine Bluefields might be the best thing since it can carry the SS-N-27 missile to take care of any defense ships if it runs in to trouble. Taking out an AEGIES Diestroyer might be as damaging a blow as placing the mines.

If we detect an enemy force heading to the Canal on the critical turn three we should have a P-3 providing surveillance and targeting for the battle if in the unlikely chance they are not heading for the Canal it should conduct standard ASW searches. By turn three we should have a 3rd P-3 operational so the temporary loss of one for cover for the Canal operation will not effect our normal search operations.

Maybe we should have Piervit's Akula 'tag along' with the Canal Task Force. He can loan his SS-N-27 capablites to the group, but we can release him to do the mining op if the Task Force is in no danger. If Piervit dosn't mind adding another hex of travel to Bluefields?

[swimsalot]

1: After looking at the map some more, how long would it take to get a surface or sub with TLAM to around G6?
1a: By establishing sea control in that area, we would deny them access to both Kingston and Port Au Prince, and also enable TLAM attacks on their home base and at Trujillo, which I think they will try to secure quickly to gain assets.
Perhaps sending an La 688i there with a P3?
1b: We would also control the sea lanes between Kingston/Port Au Prince and their bases, which I'm assuming will be used by merchies.
2: How many hexes can a TLAM cover (range)?
3: If we secure Riohacha, is there access to the "lake" at K3? We could stash a CGN in there, protecting it from subs, and any TLAMS going after it would have to fly over neutral space, which to my understanding is a no-no.
4: If we secure Kingston, we could base a raid from there into Trujillo, thereby flanking their home port, and giving them a fight on 2 fronts (dividing their resources). We wouldn't have to make it a big strike, just enough to make them re-position assets to meet the threat on their flank.

[TLAM Strike]

1: After looking at the map some more, how long would it take to get a surface or sub with TLAM to around G6? Four turns.

1a: By establishing sea control in that area, we would deny them access to both Kingston and Port Au Prince, and also enable TLAM attacks on their home base and at Trujillo, which I think they will try to secure quickly to gain assets.
Perhaps sending an La 688i there with a P3? We can conduct TLAM attacks against their home base right now and make it look like we are there...

1b: We would also control the sea lanes between Kingston/Port Au Prince and their bases, which I'm assuming will be used by merchies. Indeed, I think this will be our second major operation of the war.

2: How many hexes can a TLAM cover (range)? 14 with four waypoints. For example if we want to attack Trujillo and make it look like the attack came from the Kingston area we could launch from H4, 1st WP K5, 2nd WP F8, and hit at C6

3: If we secure Riohacha, is there access to the "lake" at K3? We could stash a CGN in there, protecting it from subs, and any TLAMS going after it would have to fly over neutral space, which to my understanding is a no-no. I don't see the point of bottling up a valuable CG in a place where it can't provide cover to a base or fleet.

4: If we secure Kingston, we could base a raid from there into Trujillo, thereby flanking their home port, and giving them a fight on 2 fronts (dividing their resources). We wouldn't have to make it a big strike, just enough to make them re-position assets to meet the threat on their flank. Indeed, Kingston and Port au Prince should be the targets of our second Op. Assuming eather side as the assests to conduct a second Op, the Canal Op maybe very well demolish both fleets, that is why we need to plan out the best tactical level plan (and a few backup plans) to take out any Enemy attack on the canal.

[TLAM Strike]

I submit this plan for review:

Tactical Level Plan for Canal Operation.
Two FFGs and Kilo B-495 will act as close escorts for the AOR and LSD. The three SSNs (SSN-22, K-331 and 688(i)) will take up wedge formation to starboard of the ARG with SW to Starboard Forward or in front so its sensors are able to better localize any enemy ships. The 688(i) will be either in front or to Starboard Forward for the same reason. The Akula will be Starboard Aft. The Kilo will remain close to the ARG to provide SUBROC support. The P-3 will orbit the enemy fleet out of SM-2 range and provide targeting data for our Subs and FFGs, a large SSM swarm of TASM, Harpoons from the FFGs and SS-N-27 ASMs should put the majority of enemy surface combatants out of the battle, the P-3 should have AGM-65s ready to hit the enemy fleet should the opportunity arise (but don’t try to be a hero). The MH-60s should carry AGM-119 Penguin missiles should it be determined that they have sufficient range to attack the enemy fleet without putting the helos in undue danger or away from their ASW stations. The P-3 (once targeting duties have been deemed complete) and MH-60s should lay down a line of DICASS buoys between our fleet and any enemy submarines about 18 miles off the ARG’s beam, the Kilo and Akula should be ready to deliver SUBROCs at targets detected by Buoy Processing assets, so the Akula player should be sure to carry several SS-N-16 ‘Stallion’ rockets, the Kilo player should also have several SS-N-15 ‘Starfish’ rockets. Any players not assigned a unit in this fleet should be assigned to a FFG or MH-60. Note on FFG deployment, both FFGs should be to starboard (forward and aft) of the AOR and LSD, and if possible the AOR be to starboard of the LSD but to port of the FFGs to provide maximum protection of the LSD and its marine divisions.

Unanswered questions:
What should be the plan should our LSD be destroyed?
What should be the plan if the enemy force is superior? Such as if it has a DDG?

[LTJG Morgan]

What about Riohacha after the "conquering" of the Canal? If they won't be able to win battles at the Canal and at Kingston they will try to get Riohacha (or they won't even try to get Kingston). Perhaps we should "keep an eye out" on Riohacha (we could send one of our FFGs there to J5 or 6).
Anyway my SSN is ready to serve the battlegroup heading to the Canal :cool:

[TLAM Strike]

We will be launching an invasion of Riohatcha at the same time as the Canal Operation; Riohatcha has a CG and SH-60 that can be used to defend it. I think that after the Canal Operation is done (or just before) we should start building a couple of Project 877 Kilo (standard) to defense Riohatcha and the Canal, along with some SAM sites and two Marine Divisions for the Kingston/Port au Prince operation.

[swimsalot]

I don't see the point of bottling up a valuable CG in a place where it can't provide cover to a base or fleet.
That's why I have questions about ranges; what is range of Aegis "umbrella" for protection against missiles? I was thinking it could provide cover for our main base from the K3 area while being protected against attack. If the ranges are wrong, never mind.

[JoGary]

Yes i would like to send marines to Riohatcha to as if we leave it to late there we could meet resistance. The way should be clear for the first few turns so the faster we get there the better IMO.

Swims plan is looking good once we know we have secured the canal. With a bit of luck we will know for by turn 2 what we will be up against for the canal and may be able to divert some of the escort to other ops as the P3 recon flights should give us a idea of where they are sending what. I now also have the map of our base and i am positioning the SAM Sites. I will post the map here so you can see if you all think they ok.
Also i am reviewing TLAMS plan and will reply on that soon

[swimsalot]

I submit this plan for rev
What should be the plan if the enemy force is superior? Such as if it has a DDG?


Brings up a broader question of how aggressive are going to be in this operation?
Should we prosecute to kill, or prosecute to drive off?
Are we denying their fleet from attacking ours, or are we actively going out to destroy their asstes?
It's not simply a matter of semantics, the operational goals need to be very clear, as it will dictate what tactics a unit commander will utilize in any given situation. It will dictate what level of risk is acceptable in any given situation.
We must constantly perform a risk/benefit analysis of any given tactical situation before making a "shoot/don't shoot decision".
What are we thinking for the canal op?

[Molon Labe]

@ Swimsalot,

Against seaskimming missiles, AEGIS ships in LW/Ami 2.3 fire their first salvo around 20nm away, sometimes a bit more.

[JoGary]

Mythinking is that if we can get the canal and hold it it would put us in a very strong position and the same would go for them if they held it. I am willing to go all out for this base. I would rather drive them of and capture the base first than get into a full scale battle now but i just dont think we can take the chance of letting them get the canal.
Once we get the Canal then it can resuply and provide air cover right on their door step. We would then IMO be in a very good position to strike out from there and who knows maybe capture thair home base :wink: .
So for me i think we got to do whatever is needed to get the Canal. Preferably not getting into a big engagment so early in the war. So driving them off and stopping them attacking our fleet would be best but also prepare for a major engagement.
I like what TLAM has suggested and think we should go with that. Also send 1 LSD and FFG to Riohatcha. This would leave the base short on defence but once the LSD reaches I4 we could turn the FFG and it would be back in base after turn 2.then send the LSD to J4 and along the coast to Riohatcha hoping any P3 patrol will be searching in J5 and not J4. Or we could let the FFG escort the LSD to J4 and then turn it back and then LSD would only have to make 1 turn undefended. This would get the FFG back to base on turn 4. Once it gets to Riohatcha there is a CVG there to defend it. Chances are that they will do as we are going to do and send their P3s to recon H4 and I4 in first turn to see what our movements are. If a P3 stumbles on our LSD and it has no escort then it lost.
Also maybe we should put the DSRV on one of the SSNs going to the Canal? Then we can rescue and players lost in canal battle.

btw my ICQ is 259346534 for anyone who has not already got it.

[TLAM Strike]

My Kilo will be basically running close escort with the ARG at high-ish speed, as a SUBROC launcher so I could carry the DSRV and off load it after the op is done so there is less risk of losing it. It would compromise my stealth but I’m willing to risk it if absolutely necessary (just as long as I don’t need to carry that whale on my back for very long!) But we are so close to our home base do we really need to bring one? The crew lasts 10 turns, three to get a sub back to base, (one to load?), three to get there, (one to rescue?), so 7-8 turns to rescue really don't demonstrate a need to bring it with, if we take the Canal we can even air lift it in.

[TLAM Strike]

I say escort the Riohatcha LSD to J4 and then part ways K4 (Riohatcha) is out of P-3 Range. We could write a conditional order that says if Enemy forces (ex a P-3) detected FFG stays with the LSD, if not move to I4.

[Piervit]

I am discovering the LW/Ami 2.3.
TLAM you speak a lot of the ASROC.
How good are they with the mod?
Are they able to attack ship too or are they only for sub?

[LTJG Morgan]

Also maybe we should put the DSRV on one of the SSNs going to the Canal?

I don't think so. If there will be a battle at the Canal (which is likely to happen) we will have (big) chance to lost sub(s) or/and surface ship(s) there, and what if we lost the sub which is carrying the DSRV? We shouldn't put our DSRV into danger, it will be easier to take it to the Canal after the Battle (I hope we won't need to).


I think that after the Canal Operation is done (or just before) we should start building a couple of Project 877 Kilo (standard) to defense Riohatcha and the Canal

Building Kilos is seems to be a good idea, but what about LA SSNs? Kilos are more defenseless then LA SSNs, so I think we should build some LA SSNs and some Kilos too. (Perhaps a 50-50% would be good, but I think we shouldn't build more Kilos than LA SSNs.) Building another Seawolf after taking control of Kingston or Port au Prince could be another important thing to do.

So what is the final formation of the group which will do the "Canal Operation"?

[Molon Labe]

I say escort the Riohatcha LSD to J4 and then part ways K4 (Riohatcha) is out of P-3 Range. We could write a conditional order that says if Enemy forces (ex a P-3) detected FFG stays with the LSD, if not move to I4.

The only time conditional orders are useful is when you have a helo scouting a space for a surface ship, or when you ended the previous turn in the same hex as an enemy unit and may wish to follow it into some spaces but not others. Movement occurs before detection, so it doesn't make sense to condition a movement order on a detection except in the exceptional circumstances above.

[LTJG Morgan]

Just another word: what are we planning to do if we will have heavy losses in the Canal Operation? In that case it will be very difficult to take control of Kingston, because the Mariners will likely to want that port for themselves just like our fleet. Sending a FFG or P3 (if it is possible) there at the start could be helpful in the future.

[TLAM Strike]

I am discovering the LW/Ami 2.3.
TLAM you speak a lot of the ASROC.
How good are they with the mod?
Are they able to attack ship too or are they only for sub? They are somewhat less accurate, but this allows you to blanket an area with them (thus giving a better chance of hitting the target). Also AI ships that are armed with them are down right nasty. I was playing 'Nordic Hammer' from Bill Nicholas' Red Storm Rising campaign and the Udaloy class DDGs were very difficult to kill, every time I poked my head above the thermocline layer they would launch several SS-N-14 Silex missiles at me. The fixed SUBROC doctrine and new AI doctrines are deadly in LW/Ami!

SUBROCs can attack surface ships but they are very ineffective since they are slow, ballistic and have a light weght torpedo as their warhead. IRL some like the SS-N-14 Silex can be use as an ASM, they attach a radar seeker and warhead to the missile.


Building Kilos is seems to be a good idea, but what about LA SSNs? Kilos are more defenseless then LA SSNs, so I think we should build some LA SSNs and some Kilos too. (Perhaps a 50-50% would be good, but I think we shouldn't build more Kilos than LA SSNs.) Building another Seawolf after taking control of Kingston or Port au Prince could be another important thing to do. Your missing the whole point of the Kilo, numbers for each LA we build we could built TWO Project 877 Kilos! We can quickly get to the point where we can have a Kilo lurking out side every base sinking shipping. Why do you think the Soviets kept building Diesels like the Foxtrot, Golf and Kilo? The SSN centric high tech US couldn't possably hope to find and sink them all. If we lose a few Kilos fine we loose them but if they sink only two enemy merchants they have payed for them selves.


Just another word: what are we planning to do if we will have heavy losses in the Canal Operation? In that case it will be very difficult to take control of Kingston, because the Mariners will likely to want that port for themselves just like our fleet. Sending a FFG or P3 (if it is possible) there at the start could be helpful in the future. If the Canal Operation goes bad, we die! The Canal maybe the most valuable peice of real estate on the map, worth two or three Kingstons! If it came down to taking the Canal with no losses and the enemy doing the same with Kingston I have no problem with that since we are in the better. The Canal and Riohatcha are the 1st two targets not Kingston, sending major forces out there right now would just isolate them from the rest of our fleet. We have a spare 688(i) we can send that but that will just be there to harass any enemy invason force.

[Piervit]

thx for the answer.
I will go to training now :biggrin:

[TLAM Strike]

I’ve done some war gaming of what a battle at the Canal might be like and if the weather is clear with low sea state an MH-60R can’t close to within range of a DDG to launch a AGM-119B Penguin. Even at low altitude a P-3 shouldn’t get closer than 30 Nmis or its risks SM-2 attack. Against 1 DDG, 2 FFGs, 1 AOR, 1 LSD a salvo of 9 AGM-65 Mavericks will score at least one hit (possibly more) if all fired against the DDG (21% Damage with one hit).

[Piervit]

ATTENTION ON THE DECK!


All first move must be declared to Molon Labe before 00H00GMT the 29 (This day). It let us only 3H30 min !!!
Don t forget to add the loadout that you want in the same time or you will go to fight without weapon.

[TLAM Strike]

FOR YOUR REVIEW:

Canal Task Force:
SSN-22 Connecticut
B-459 Vladikavkaz
K-331 Narval
SSN-752 Topeka
FFG-59 Kauffman
FFG-60 Rodney Davis
LSD-50 Carter Hill
AOE-4 Detroit
From I-3 to H-4

688(i) should have VLS with TASM, SW should have a supply as well. P-3 should have 9 AGM-65 Mavs and torpedoes.

Riohatcha Task Force:
FFG-57 Reuben James
LSD-52 Pearl Harbor
AOE-3 Camden
From I-3 to I-4

Recon Mission:
P-3 Swimsalot
I3>H4>G4>4>F5>E5ASW>F6>G5>H5>I4>I3
P-3
I3>H3>G3>F4>E4ASW>E3>F3>G3>H4>I3

Kingston Patrol:
SSN-754 Topeka to I-4

Base Defense:
DDG-52 Barry to I-3 and Patrol
MHC-59 Falcon to I-3 and Patrol

[swimsalot]

So how do I "requisition" my load out? Do I inform Jogary?
Also, I have been working up surface warfare from the P3. The DW book states the ingame range for the AGM65 is 50nm. I routinely have to close to approx
20k yards to get the missile to aquire, irregardless of altitude.
Is this an LWAMI thing? Did they change the range for the AGM65? Pretty important, if I have to fire from 20k yards I'm well within SM2 range (25nm).

[TLAM Strike]

Yes tell JoGary your load out.

You may want to carry SLAM-ERs inplace of the Mavs and shoot them off at the base, I think your patrol area is within range.

Come on ICQ me, Piervit and JoGary are on and disscussing the movment orders.