Last Chance before Easter

[OneShot]

Another Chance to get together and sink someone (or something). No Limit on the number of players. Unless someone custom makes a mission for that night we will use one of the missions shipped with DW or from SubGurus website.

Please sign in if you want to play and post your prefered platform.

Meeting 15 Minutes prior to game start in the CADC FlashChat. Take Note at the moment the link in the Portal is broken so you have to go to the forum proper and then select Flashchat under Quicklinks.

Cheers
OS

[Molon Labe]

Can we get a time zone with that time, please? :biggrin:

[Cyklop]

If we start around 1900 UTC (2100 CET = 1500 EST) I'm happy to play any platform and I can bring two reliable FFG players with me.

Good to see this forum brought back to life!

[OneShot]

I set the Event for 1800 - 2100 GMT/UTC. Tho at least I could accomodate a tad later start time if needed.

Cheers
OS

[Molon Labe]

Looks good to me.

[Furia]

I am in :wink:

I am working on a map we played on the past, maybe some of you remmber it. It was called VIP protection.
The storyline is that the White House Staff is having a charity sailing Race near Catalina Island.
Iran, sides with Al'Queda and send 2 Kilo boats with Comandos to kidnap some VIP and hand them to AL'Queda for a TV execution.
The US have a FFG, plus some air assets and one 688i to sanitize the area and avoid the VIP being kiddnaped.
I am editing this map to make it more "fast"
What do you think of it for this match?

[Molon Labe]

I think any situation with a US SSN going up against Kilos is going to be a quick match, especially when there is air support to immediately detect and localize a missile launch and surface support to shoot the missiles down. It's as simple a matter as turning on the active sonar. It might be possible to nerf the active sonar by mucking up the acoustics enough, but then the Kilos will be blind as well and are going to have extreme difficulty finding their targets without timely offboard data.

[Furia]

Hmm nice notes Molon. I always end up thinking like a Skimmer.
I will remove the 688i from the map. Actually I was thinking it was too sided on the US side.

I have added several biologics so the active contacts are not so clearly the enemies.
Regarding the Kilos missiles, they are not to fire them because their mission is to send a comando and capture the sailboat and then evade. They can only fire on self defense. The map is designed for the kilos carry out their mission while the ASW forces get nuts trying to find them.
Plenty of biologics, fishing vesels and stuff. Not easy to catch a sneaky Kilo.
Working on the map now :biggrin: :cool:

[Molon Labe]

Ok, good idea.


The reason I mentioned missiles is because a US sub going active would probably be shot at with SUBROCs in response, BTW. If that's not a possibility, then there is no reason for the US sub not to use active.

[vasili]

i think whis will be a very fast match. The slow moving kilos without towed arrays ... many active bouys in the water ... and they cant dive under the mad sensors detection range. Sitting ducks ??? And maybe a commando team which is under fire from a perry ... hm ... if i drive a kilo in this mission - i have no chance to evade an incomming (airlaunched) torpedo. Sounds not good to me this mission ... sorry.:frown:

[Molon Labe]

It's going to depend on how many points of vulnerability there are. If there are small, known points that they need to defend, the Kilos won't make it. But, if there are many possible areas the strike could occur, combined with the number of 'false positives' they might get, then the Kilos might stand a chance. Betting odds are still with the blue side, but that's how it always is once the P-3 shows up (unless Red starts so close that the buoy field never gets set up, but that cheapness doesn't count!)

[vasili]

usually the kilos dont work alone - they uplink targets for bombers/fighters or for small missile-boats. Normally there is an airfield which assists the kilos to defend country boarders. When they engage targets they kill civilian merchants or tankers - and maybe a single warship. Normaly they where used as coast-defend submarines in shallow water near the own country and NOT as a attack submarine like 688 or the akula class. Ok - in this mission they start special forces to capture a sail boat (VIP person). But where is the assistance for these submarines ??? Osa or Osa 2 missleboats ??? Fighters against enemy airplanes ??? I have seen many scenarios in many subsims but most time it wasnt reallistic. Countries which have the kilo class submarines protect them as good as they can. They are the "eye underwater" to uplink targets. I dont know the scenario - but please make shure that there is a little bit assistance to the kilos - its good for a realistic scenario which can happen. :rolleyes:

When you play chess you will try to cover all your figures by another. And a fighter is cheaper than a kilo - think about that :smile:

Maybe we find a way to play these scenario and both sides have a lot of fun :smile:

[Furia]

Put it in other way, dozens of civilian vesels and biologics to hide behind.
The Escorts have no idea wich one you will attack.
You are already on the Sailing race area so you are at very slow speed.
The escorts have to be really careful when firing because the large ammount of civilian traffic.

This is a whale area so several mammals are on this area and thus all active sonnar contacts must be processed.
2 Kilos vs 1 FFG and some air assets have not such difficult mission if properly handled.
I think it is quite balanced

[vasili]

hm ... ok - i go and practice a little bit with the kilo - maybe friday i am ready for combat with it :wink:

[Furia]

Ok the map is ready.
The final platforms avalaible are:

2 Kilo Class subs (We use chinese but they pretend to be Iranians)

1 FFG

1 P-3 Orion

2 MH-60

[Molon Labe]

Not that I get to brag for this, since the starts put me right on top of them.... but here's a screenie.http://home.insightbb.com/%7Enotenoughsand/boarding_sailboat.JPG

[Furia]

The scenario have a random start for sailboats and subs otherwise it would be too predictable for the ASW forces where to look for.
Anyway you guys did good.
Downing the P-3 and with the other helo out of ammo, meant you have won the combat.

By the way, did you liked the second map we played , Fjord Defense?

I had no chance to talk with you gents afterwards, looked to me that nobody was on server and after waiting 15 minutes whith nobody answering my messages, I disconnected the server.

Your oppinion about the maps is very useful and welcomed to improve them.

[Cyklop]

Gentlemen, I enjoyed playing the two games yesterday.

The first mission was very quick, both Molon Labe and myself started quite close to two sailboats and special forces could be deployed almost immediately. The other side couldn't do much to protect the VIPs.

The second game should have taken a lot of time to be completed. The Russian side submarines (two human and one AI) were searching the entrance to the fjord at comms depth, exchanging situational awareness data over tactical data link. I watched Mata Haari's helo drop its load on Vasili's boat but I was too far to engage him with SAM.
The only enemy surface unit I was able to sniff was one FFG that went out of EMCON so I could hear it with my ESM suite. Nothing on the sonars, the Kilo is too bad in this regard and the high sea state made it difficult to hear anything but the launched torpedoes and one cruise ship passing very close.
Eventually I had to leave the game since I could no longer see my own ship on the map - it vanished after I retracted my antenna mast and ordered 60 meters depth. I was still able to access all stations, but I just couldn't see where I was on the display.

I hope to play more games in that nice company :smile:

[Molon Labe]

The scenario have a random start for sailboats and subs otherwise it would be too predictable for the ASW forces where to look for.
Anyway you guys did good.
Downing the P-3 and with the other helo out of ammo, meant you have won the combat.
Random starts are overrated. I realize that it's important to prevent the defenders from knowing where the attackers will be. But, part of the rationale for doing so doesn't really apply here. This isn't a cutthroat competitive virtual fleet where the players will do anything to get ahead, like firing into known starting positions at mission start. Just a friendly game here. :cool: The other part of the rationale--preventing a situation where any competent P-3 player will be able to detect and kill any sub intruding on the AO--is still valid. But it makes no sense to trade one predetermined outcome for another by making it possible that the attackers start so close that it is impossible to defend. Randomness should not come at the expense of fairness--or realism for that matter (dropping subs into the middle of a battle--not realistic).:soapbox:



By the way, did you liked the second map we played , Fjord Defense?

:2ct: Be careful what you wish for.

The Akula started so close that he was able to fire immediately. The briefing told us (688I) that we were the 'first line of defense,' but all intruding subs were behind us. This definitely had a 'dropped into the middle of it' feel, and I thought it was cheap that the akula didn't have to do anything to get into firing position.

We were told to sink the SAG before they were in range to attack the friendly ARG, but we were not provided with classifications of the SAG, either in brief, intel, by players, or by our own sonar (acoustic conditions were godawful), so we had no way of knowing what missiles were being carried by the SAG.

We were apparently expected to launch a missile attack against a 3-ship SAG, all of which had SAMs, and which included the SA-N-6 Grumble (roughly equivalent performance to the SM-2/AEGIS combo). Even a 16 missile attack is unlikely to penetrate that.

If I am right that the role of the 688I was in fact to engage the SAG and not the subs (they're in different directions), then there was no human opposition for the 688I to compete against.

Sorry to be so negative.

[Furia]

Critics are always welcomed Molon Labe. I aim to improve my scenarios not to be back patted :wink:

You have to bearn in mind that I use to play my scenarios as well. If I make the sub or the sail boat a fixed possition instead random you would not be happy to have a torpedo on your head at minute 3 of the match.
But I will take more care of the random thing. On my previous tests, most of the time the Kilos needed about 40 minutes to get into "spec ops" effective range.

regarding the Fjord Defense map. I will redo the briefings to make them more clear.
The idea is that only a sub can take out that SAG, be with missiles or torps. The FFG is no match for a SAG so I was counting on the sub to do so. The briefing dictates this is a confuse sittuation, the NATO ARG have escaped damaged from a previous encounter and had seek shelter on the Fjord.
The Russians are trying to give the coup de grace.
Their subs are trying to enter the Fjor to sink the ARG and they are supposed to have arrived there unnoticed. The FFG and the helos are supposed to take care of them.
As you have noticed the 688 is on detection range of the subs so if either the russian subs or the 688i makes a noob move, the enemy sub will detect it and engage.
About the Intel avalaible, well, this is sometimes how it works, call it fog of war, you never know it all, specially on a confuse developing sittuation after a big battle. Your orders, locate and engage the SAG.
I wanted it to be confusing :wink: I didn't want it to be like a shooting range.

My idea as scenario desginer for the case of a NATO victory, was that the 688i stoped the SAG, and afterward helped to locate and kill the enemy subs if those were not already sunk by the FFG and helo.
However the 688i role was very important because if the SAG came through, it had enough firepower to destroy the whole ARG, no matter if the human subs were killed or not. So for the NATO side a real team effort was needed on this sittuation because as we have seen the scenario was a bit sided to the Russians.
As for a victory for the russian side, the Sub drivers did not even had to go inside the Fjord, the just had to locate the possition of the NATO ARG and promote the link. The SAG would finish the job via large salvo of missiles.

I apologize if I said "using" TASM againts the SAG, may be considered as the only option. I just wanted to let you know while loading weapons before the match that those would come handy "to finish off" some surface targets.
Of course where the main SAM defences were down, but that I didn't said so I apologize.

Anyway I really appreciate your imput an oppinion because I need to know how the scenarios are seen by other players and to detect any mistakes they could have. this is the only way to improve and I do not consider your coments negative at all.
I hope my next scenarios are a bit better, learning from this.

[Molon Labe]

Well, if that one works as intended, then it could turn out OK. I still think its a problem that the Russian subs are already inside the fjord; it won't take them long at all to promote those targets. Thus, you could have the same problem as we did with the VIP kidnappings.

I'm also not crazy about 688I's primary mission not being opposed by human players. That it might help with mop up work afterwards isn't much of a consolation b/c there might not be anything to mop up.

Regarding the random starts in VIP...I'm not saying it's easy to design a mission that balances out the P-3. More and more, SeaQueen is moving me toward her philosophy that larger op areas (and longer games) are the right way to fix the problem. Maybe you don't want to go that direction, but I hope you can see that a situation where Blue can't win b/c of where Red started is equally as bad--if not worse--than a situation where Red can't win because Blue can set up an impenetrable defense.

[vasili]

hm ... i started on a position where i had serval contacts to "enemy ships" - so i fired a torpedo on a contact 688 class(ceiling set to 40 m to make shure only to hit a sub) - but there was no 688 in this direction. After this i thought i go on PD and searching via esm for helos. I thought when the helo fires his torps on me the kilos have a better chance. I turned the radar on and see that a helo was "in range" of my sam - but my data where false i see on the replay. I shot a few sams in his direction - with no effect. After he launched his torps on me i was trying to escape them - but this time i was unlucky evading torps. On the replay i have seen my opponent (688) far behind me - out of sensor range. After many mistaked i do i left the game - hopefully the kilos make their mission. Maybe next time i´ll be better.:rolleyes: