Conflict of Interests

[Furia]

I would like to propose we play the suggested dynamic scenario "Conflic of Interest".
Since we already have the map avalaible and maybe there are some of us avalaible. I would like to suggest to give it a try tomorrow Sunday 8th if we can gather a minimum of 4 players.
If not enough players we can move the event for next week.

As we have done las matches I think I good time for the event could be arround 1700 GMT / 1900 CET.
As usual meeting on Flashchat 15 minutes before the match time.
So gentlemen if you want to take part on this match please post your availability here and if we can gather a minimum of 3 players, we have a mission! :cool:

The mission have:
1 Akula
1 Kilo
1 688i
1 FFG
1 MH60

Multistation is welcomed :cool:

[soundken]

Fun was had by all, guess the best news was no crashes in an 3 1/2 hour game my dying streak continues but there were extenuating circumstances interesting map LONG. roe is a little wierd but was exciting nonetheless cant wait to play again soon

[Molon Labe]

When you said you detected me visually, did you mean you had a "visual sensor" contact or did you actually see the sub out the windshield?

[soundken]

i was returning to the ffg to get more bouys when i got a "new visual target from the autocrew" i climbed away cause i thought for sure u wer e gonna sam me but yeah i also saw either the mast or the periscope outta the water through the windshield cause as i flew over you with my finger poised over the hellfire button while screaming whatya mean i cant shoot him , same thing second time i even saw the sams pass by the chopper :mad: ive noticed with lwami and the new patch the visual spotting works way better and is more accurate:smile: the only way it could be improved is if they made a "unknown contact" further out until waiting till they can id it also as a side not my countermeasures wernt working when u launched on me so there accuracy seems down

my only real complaint would be the trigger that cuses an explosion on the helo wiping out all launchers and sensorsand countermeasures im all for random events but not having them reparable left my hands tied even more than the ROE i didnt mind so much being disabled just that when you return to repair only the launchers are repaired and the sonar and countermeasures are not repaired leaving my deaf after you attacked furia but we definatly had you id'd acousticly and visullay as well as location wise OS was unlucky enough to drive right over an acoustic bouy giving us a fix on his position

also semed that tasking instructions were confusing for the 688 by telling him to reach a dive spot by 1500 but not giving him the coordinates for the point

anyway had fun cant wait to play again

[OneShot]

Whatever you saw shooting at you before Furia was attacked was definitly not MolonLabe ... to my knowledge the first SAMs he shot at you were those who actually hit and downed you.

But now that you mention it, that explains why the heck you shot flares early in the game. That was kind of a headscratcher.

As for the Visual sightings ... with the new LwAmi Mod der AI detects down to 80ft so nowadays a visual of a sub doesn't necessarily mean its actually on the surface. I had a similar experience in one of the other MP games lately where I got Visuals from Cyklop I think was it and I tried to hit him with my Maverick, only the damn thing didn't want to fire because he wasn't on the surface. This, btw., nicely proves that the Maverick Bug is gone for good.

Either way, its a nice thing this "New" Visual Sensor and works well within certain limitations (depending on SeaState and Weather as well of course as the depth of the submarine).

Btw. - I certainly wont take a Kilo in the future ... talk about a serious lack of capabilities and definitly nothing for impatient players.

Cheers
OS

[soundken]

sry confusion OS no the only sams i saw were the once fired on me the second time i saw molon when I was trying to close on him to drop(aftur furia had died) think one went by and then annother and either one circled around or he launched a third one i didnt see come off the rail as i was already trying to clear the area figuring the torp would get him

the countermeasures at the begining were a rusult of the fact that my keyboard has been messed up these last couple of days and everytime i lean or press under the spacebar its just like pressing sapce and its real sensitive im having to retype half this post just to get it out:rolleyes: im amazed you saw that

oh well enough excuses molon got me fair and square i thought a torp drop was more of a sure kill than the hellfires :gdamnit: or at least i could get him to flinch mabey but today was not my day

i can see that alot of time and effort went into the creation of this mission and i really like the premise its a good scenario with some really difficult water to deal with and in the readme it does mention in the readme about some frustration over the roe so ill try not to fan the flames. a briefing or somthing on the ROE would be nice however since a positive id'd sub attacking a us surface vessel and helicopter would be an act of war i wonder if theres a way to create a trigger so that once the subs position and id are accuratly determined and within a minimum range to the ffg that sub becomes disqualified from completing the goal (forced to surface) or deemed as hostile and thus can be attacked, otherwise if you have to wait until they shoot first someone is gonna die

however seems you guys had as much info on us as we had on you molon was definetly within striking distance of the ffg and very close to being able to attack the 688 before i ever noticed him so the roe was just as limiting to your side perhaps changing the goals so the only valid target is the 688 but then all you can do is watch him drive up to it and shot it at close range

as far as the visual sighting thing goes i think its a vast improvment (i also like the graphics improvements too !!!!) i seam to remeber a post way back at version one about "uhh sir there might be an enemy destroyer right under us but im not realy confident it might be a fishing boat" and if luft ever reads this post GREAT JOB DUDE

[Molon Labe]

First you see a mast, then its the whole sub, now its a mast again... I'm confused. If masts are suddenly detectable, that's definitely a hell of an easter egg they gave us for 1.04. Anyways, the reason why I asked about the first visual detection was to figure out if that was a LW/Ami visual sensor detection for me at PD, or if there was a manuevering bug that put me on the surface.

As for the mission, I think it needs more specific orders for the 688I. This probably would have worked if he had to transit to a location by a certain time; as it stood to pretty much just stayed at his starting point. Thus, he was never detected, and was never shot at, and ROE never went to wartime, and so on. Fix the one issue, and the rest should fall into place.

[subb]

WOW!!!

Sounds like you guys enjoyed yourselves!!!

@ OS:

Ya the kilo is a challenge in itself for this kind of mission, but we figured two akulas would be overkill as well as pointless for one 688. When I’m driving the kilo, I tend to use her as a spotter for the akula, mainly attempting to make visuals and random radar sweeps and uploading any form of intelligence I can gather to aid us in locating and intercepting the 688.

One time as kilo I made visual on ffg at about 8 or 9nm heading away from me, I could barely see the mast but figured the ASM salvo form the akula would make up for error. Also the helo was landing after we received radio message of some sort of accident. I promoted the link but didn’t call in ‘artillery’ until sometime after the helo was actually on deck and final observation was made. That mission fell to pieces as the akula driver did something stupid like run into a neut after his ASM salvo and I pretty much threw in the towel at that point. But ASW operations in the kilo is damn near impossible anyways, she isn't made for that, even more so now that the UUVs aren’t ‘really effective’ for ASW.

With the proper navigation the 688 can avoid TIWs of suspected uuvs and still the kilo wouldn’t have a chance, unless the 688 fires back. Still there is always the chance that the kilo can find the 688 but it depends on the situation and circumstances. In fact with the right weapons and timing the kilo could ‘quarantine’ the 688 to a localized area. She’s tough to use on that map but still just as effective. In the end it really depends on teamwork and planning no matter what side you play.

Also I’ll have to dig up those AARs and I’ll post them as soon as I find them.

@soundken:

When we made this map, we made it to reflect what a possible real life situation could be like, excluding any form of disqualifications of any kind.

I can see it now.. an enemy boomer is detected off the coast of its opposing country. Although logically he is hostile even though he hasn’t committed any hostile action yet,. we’ll just disqualify the platform for being detected and run a script to change depth to surface depth for 0 seconds. :D

It doesn’t make sense to do such a thing. I missed two routine comms intervals because I wasn't going to risk visual detection at shallow depth, but more on that later. Sometimes it’s luck be it good or bad, sometimes its skillset, sometimes it's tactics, especially with ROE in effect. At least one thing is true, you know where at least one of each platform from both sides are located, assuming the other RU wasn’t located just yet. That tidbit of info could pan out to be useful as well as harmful for both sides.

The random accident reflects that even in multi-billion dollar platforms still things can go wrong. Also it was a test of skill on my part to code all of that stuff in especially where all of your systems can be repaired to 100% once you have landed and remain on deck of the FFG and wait for either complete repairs or partial repairs, meaning if a fraction of your systems were fixed and you had to bug out, you can still return for additional repairs until 100% complete, provided that the FFG is still alive.

We decided to include ROE to reflect what one could possibly experience in a real life situation as well. And ROE conditions are provided in radio tasking and not in briefing, and we did that for a reason. Also there was never frustrations over ROE, only the level of seriousness of the mission and ‘thought work’ required to be as effective as possible and assess the situation in an effort of completing your mission tasking, I would also like to say, as one could possibly experience in a real life situation.

For example:

A. As the akula I bagged the 688 on a hunch the ffg was running screen so I opened up with salvos of spread shots of 53cms over 45 degrees. Initially my internal tubes were not loaded to 100% with 53cms so the attack was delayed until reloading and regaining contact, in this case active intercept in random intervals from the ffg skipper. I rigged all stop until tubes were loaded to 100% for the attack and resumed patrol. After the 1st salvo was fired and the 688 got hit we received orders to disengage I then open with the 2nd salvo of 53cms to buy us time on the way out. Moments later the kilo was snatched up by the helo some 15nm out. Later my efforts of escape turned into dodging helo attacks to the best of my ability and finally I caught one about 1.5nm from minimum safe distance. I traveled less than 20nm inland until contact with FFG was made.

B. There have been times as the akula where I’ve tried several search patterns and routine TA baffles checks in an effort to locate that 688 but to no avail, and if I didn’t check baffles or at least attempt to, he could be heading right towards me and I not even know it. What then? The 688 approaches from my TA baffles and detects me, then it would only be common sense to inform the helo to locate me so now the 688 can avoid me altogether, or take his chances and play politics with ROE, but why the unnecessary risk?

C. Also there have been times where I missed comms intervals because of a nearby emitting helo, delaying any form of intelligence I could have possibly gathered by 1 hour – a lot can happen in one hour – a lot did happen in one hours time. As the kilo the ffg was damn near on top of me on the comms interval but if I made my intervals as scheduled there could have been the chance where I would maintain the element of surprise in that regard.

In qualification testing we’ve experienced where guys in key platforms are looking for an immediate battle only ended up in making hasty choices placing the rest of the team in jeopardy for really no apparent reason other than their own haste. If everyone would just keep the mission in mind and play their part then things can run as smooth as possible until otherwise.

[subb]

@ molon

We also did that for a reason – not to disclose a specific location for ‘dive point’ as we felt this would contribute to predictability and possibility turn into ‘goal camping’.
Instead ‘dive point’ is a goal destination trigger that can be fired by the 688 regardless where he is on the map. Followed by the actual outcome of the mission sent globally to all other playables.

It’s listed in the 688 radio tasking to depart and reach dive point within a certain amount of time and that the XO will inform you (the skipper) when you will reach ‘dive point’ basically telling you that you pretty much completed your objective. He does so by playing a custom audio.wav file and report sent to window of the 688 followed by goal trigger fired by 688 but reported globally to all playables that the 688 competed his mission. What should have happened is when you spawned as 688 you should have heard a audio saying ‘conn radio recommend copying the comms broadcast’ if not then the audio files needed were not installed in scenario folder per installation instructions.

Also RU is tasked to intercept or delay 688 departure. If the 688 doesn’t hear the XO by the time specified in tasking or before, then the 688 fires a trigger effectively being delayed on the behalf of RU since the 688 did not reach it’s objective in the time specified.

You said ‘fix the one issue’ what are you referring to exactly? The fact that he was never detected, never shot at and ROE never changed is one of possible situations to be in. If RU did attack and ROE never changed then that is an issue, which shouldn’t be. Or could appear to be one, meaning if RU did attack all US playables should have heard an audio of gen qtrs followed by message sent to report window to each playable that ROE has changed to weapons free. But if audio files are in the wrong locations, you won’t hear anything when you are supposed to.

[Molon Labe]

@ molon

We also did that for a reason – not to disclose a specific location for ‘dive point’ as we felt this would contribute to predictability and possibility turn into ‘goal camping’.
Instead ‘dive point’ is a goal destination trigger that can be fired by the 688 regardless where he is on the map. Followed by the actual outcome of the mission sent globally to all other playables.

It’s listed in the 688 radio tasking to depart and reach dive point within a certain amount of time and that the XO will inform you (the skipper) when you will reach ‘dive point’ basically telling you that you pretty much completed your objective. He does so by playing a custom audio.wav file and report sent to window of the 688 followed by goal trigger fired by 688 but reported globally to all playables that the 688 competed his mission. What should have happened is when you spawned as 688 you should have heard a audio saying ‘conn radio recommend copying the comms broadcast’ if not then the audio files needed were not installed in scenario folder per installation instructions.

Also RU is tasked to intercept or delay 688 departure. If the 688 doesn’t hear the XO by the time specified in tasking or before, then the 688 fires a trigger effectively being delayed on the behalf of RU since the 688 did not reach it’s objective in the time specified.

You said ‘fix the one issue’ what are you referring to exactly? The fact that he was never detected, never shot at and ROE never changed is one of possible situations to be in. If RU did attack and ROE never changed then that is an issue, which shouldn’t be. Or could appear to be one, meaning if RU did attack all US playables should have heard an audio of gen qtrs followed by message sent to report window to each playable that ROE has changed to weapons free. But if audio files are in the wrong locations, you won’t hear anything when you are supposed to.

We played for 3 hours without ever getting anywhere. The combat described in the above posts was what happened when I got bored and decided to fuck around. 3 hours without anything happening is the issue.

Looking at the 688's briefing a solution does seem apparent...give the sub a place to be. As it stands, it has to be somewhere--not specified--in 4 hours. That doesn't accomplish anything. The 688I driver doesn't even know where he has to be. So, in our game, he simply didn't go anywhere--and that's why our game didn't either.

If you're concerned about goal camping, you can create multiple dive points, or use very distant and large destination points to create a distance away from shore the sub has to reach. Also keep in mind that since the US side will know where that point is, they can sanitize it, so camping it is a really poor tactic under these circumstances.

[soundken]

First you see a mast, then its the whole sub, now its a mast again... I'm confused. If masts are suddenly detectable, that's definitely a hell of an easter egg they gave us for 1.04. .

well i work nights so i do end up staying up way past my bedtime for these missions on sundays and this happened very fast as i was travling at 300 feet 150 knots first i saw a sub visual report aprox by hour 2 before the explosion incedent 3d window i quickly swithched to the weapon screen where i lined up the hellfire cause i was gonna launch as i was unaware of the ROE plus i thought for sure you were gonna kill me i reported to furia that i had visual where he informed me of the ROE continuing on (i wish i had my screenshot program running) i began to pass over you looking ahead i saw somthing large on the horizion thoght it was the sub but not fully surfaced then as i passed overhead still looking out the window i definatly saw your periscope right under me with its lil wake trailing off right as i got the mad report. cause i remember thinking god im right over his periscope and yes ive noticed things like this since the new version including sudden splashes of water when subs blow up and i circled around and managed to reaquire u again visually till furia began to really worry about me

i thought u were running on the surface and when you saw me submerged was this not the case but in conclusion yes lwami can visually id subs at pd however in my previous experiance of this happening same mission play through the night before this time with the 688 which was linked but as i flew over got a second track unknown submarine contact for some reason it was positive you were an akula

wow these posts are getting long winded
@subb plz dont misunderstand me i think that its a great mission i also appreciate the extra work on making it dynamic and the extra audio work is always nice ive just had a naughty run off luck where everytime i get to one of these big mp games theres always some fuel leak or explosion or somthing that goes wrong on my helo and i was unaware that i could return for more repairs cause it just said (unrepairable) thanks for the tip

there were some obvious communication issues that were our fault that caused things to not go as smoothly as they could

i think the most important thing that happend this mission is that 5 people were able to play for 3 1/2 hours without loosing a single player from the game which is just great news

[Furia]

I have to say that the mission idea is very good but it need some touches or it is not fun to play.
With the actual ROE the AKULA can go to surface at flank, put his radar on and lock the 688i before he submerges, then he can either steam till he gets 1000 yards of her o simply launch a salvo of skimmers to the 688i.
The US side had the hands tied to do nothing.

On real life, nobody would allow a couple of attack subs to get within weapon range of a boomer on territorial waters on a Naval Base specially if the political situation may indicate the possibility of an attack.
If we are not allowed to fire, at least the 688i should not be forced to walk down the alley.
LOL the russian subs can even go active sonar, locate the 688i, get close to 1000 yards and put 12 torpedoes on the water.

The ROE should be changed IMHO.

Regarding the helo "accident" it is right that such machines can have malfunctions. I fly one of them for living.
However usually you do get one or two system failures every "incident" not a massive system failure. Anyway we can live with it.

The US side must know where the 688i destination point is. Neither the 688i driver or the FFG (me on this case) or the Helo had a clue about what the 688i destination was to be. Just that he had to reach there before 1500. But where?

On yesterday combat US side could have won but we were tied to edefat because the ROE. We located the Akula early thanks to the visual sighting and afterwards we located him on the buoys. I was keeping contact with him at a distance of 4 to 5 NM not knowing what to do. He was simply getting closer to the 688i
At one point the Kilo accelerated and we picked him up on some buoys.
And we could do nothing.
After 3 hours playing andwhen the enemy subs were getting closer to the L.A, the only solution I had was to make a lot of noise to try to cover the 688i signature, and this is when Molon labe overkilled me with several SSM and torpedoes at very short range. Since I got the Vampire imbound till impact I only had 3 seconds to react. Well done Molon. nobody can survive such salvoe at short range.

Subb, please take this comments as possitive ones. As a map designer myself I think it is good to hear what the others think it can improve the scenarios for more fun gamming.

Ken , it was a pleasure teaming with you again. I realize you have been practicing a lot and now you are a skilled MH-60 operator. My FFG helideck will always welcome you.:wink:

[OneShot]

@Subb : Do you have a text message as well for all of your .WAV files ? Because if a player didn't download the mission himself, just copied it from the server when logging on - then he doesn't have the .WAV files and thus cannot get some infos he is supposed to.

[Molon Labe]

I have to say that the mission idea is very good but it need some touches or it is not fun to play.
With the actual ROE the AKULA can go to surface at flank, put his radar on and lock the 688i before he submerges, then he can either steam till he gets 1000 yards of her o simply launch a salvo of skimmers to the 688i.
The US side had the hands tied to do nothing.
I think the ROE are fine. This description is of an extreme, absurd type of play that would be used only by someone that does not care about the survival of his own ship. You can't build missions for the crazy people, you have to assume the players will be at least slightly reasonable.

Peacetime ROE is really never a bad place to start if you're looking for realism. Of course, if you want combat, you have to make sure that the ROE will be triggered, hence the suggestion I've already made to prevent the 688I from camping along the coast instead of deploying as ordered (well, sort of ordered, since it's not given a place to be).



On real life, nobody would allow a couple of attack subs to get within weapon range of a boomer on territorial waters on a Naval Base specially if the political situation may indicate the possibility of an attack.
There was no boomer. Those were not US territorial waters.



If we are not allowed to fire, at least the 688i should not be forced to walk down the alley.
LOL the russian subs can even go active sonar, locate the 688i, get close to 1000 yards and put 12 torpedoes on the water.

The ROE should be changed IMHO.

I did use active sonar once you guys told us we had been detected, and I still didn't find the 688I. The acoustic conditions are lousy. 12 torps, again, is an extreme and absurd example, and there's nothing reasonable a mission designer can do to prevent it so it's not worth talking about.



Regarding the helo "accident" it is right that such machines can have malfunctions. I fly one of them for living.
However usually you do get one or two system failures every "incident" not a massive system failure. Anyway we can live with it.

eh, I don't usually like these. Anything that makes the outcome predetermined or random, or makes it closer to being so, is a bad thing IMO.



The US side must know where the 688i destination point is. Neither the 688i driver or the FFG (me on this case) or the Helo had a clue about what the 688i destination was to be. Just that he had to reach there before 1500. But where?
Exactly.




On yesterday combat US side could have won but we were tied to edefat because the ROE. We located the Akula early thanks to the visual sighting and afterwards we located him on the buoys. I was keeping contact with him at a distance of 4 to 5 NM not knowing what to do. He was simply getting closer to the 688i
At one point the Kilo accelerated and we picked him up on some buoys.
And we could do nothing.
The US side did win. The 688I was never stopped.



After 3 hours playing andwhen the enemy subs were getting closer to the L.A, the only solution I had was to make a lot of noise to try to cover the 688i signature, and this is when Molon labe overkilled me with several SSM and torpedoes at very short range. Since I got the Vampire imbound till impact I only had 3 seconds to react. Well done Molon. nobody can survive such salvoe at short range.
Oh, boo hoo! 6 missiles is not an unreasonable salvo size. There were no torpedoes. And while you were not meant to survive it, you had 36 seconds (I did the math) to shoot one or two down before the 2nd stage lit off, and those 36 plus a few more seconds to put out some chaff. There was some chance that between hard kills and spoofs, you could have survived. Granted, it's a low chance, probably something like 25%. As it turned out, only 2 more missiles hit you than was needed for a kill. That's not much overkill. And I only saw one chaff bloom through the 'scope, so I think it's safe to say that there wouldn't have been overkill had you used a bit more.

Of course, there's also the matter of who's fault it was that I was at that range. You could have either driven away to give yourself more time, or played "holddown exercise" to keep me too close to use missiles. Instead, you allowed yourself to be at the range where a missile salvo would be harder to defend against than it had to be.

[Furia]

I knew quite well I should not be there. But what else could I do on that absurd situation?
You and the Kilo were slowly converging on the 688i and time was running out.
I knew I was dead long before you ever thought about firing. I was expendable, but I had to force you guys to fire, actually I told Ken I was going to do so, so he could engage. I could not let you get close to the Los Angeles and tell Oneshoot where he was, then you nicely can kill him, kill me and shoot the Helo down.
The FFG is not designed to play this way with a mighty Akula.
You did a good game and killed me properly. But belive me since the vampire imbound till impact I had just 3 seconds. Time to fire a flare and not even go to the Weapons Coordinator station.
on this game as you know the FFG is very handicaped and versus a mighty Akula even more. our only chance was to engage you since the first moment we got your possition and keep you on the run.
The plan of my "sacrifice" could have worked anyway if the Helo would have been fully operative so he was supposed to bore on you after your weapons release and ROE change, but he was not fully operative because system malfucntion.

I like creative maps where you do more things other than shooting, but honestly I didn't liked the ROE thing.
I guess it is about tastes.

Next time I smell your Akula, Roe or not I will sink you :cool: :tongue:

[Molon Labe]

It might have been 3 seconds from vampire inbound, but it was at least 36 seconds from the TIW warning you should have received. Flares don't help against active radar homers. :tongue:

[subb]

@All

I really appreciate the comments made by everyone and I find it surprising how at subsim forums that thread received over a thousand views, yet a turds’ worth of responses or even suggestions as to how to make it better, what seemed reasonable, issues, etc. Now, one session of that map on CADC has made a world of difference.

For the record I want you all to know that in no way shape or form I’m taking this as negative feedback. I would like to think we are all adults here. And as designers, we fully understand that going into the design of any mission, that like any other map, it won’t be favored by everyone and that is perfectly ok and normal. However, if reasonable improvements can be made w/o contributing to predictability than that’s fine and I’m willing to make those changes.

Ultimately our goal is to learn from this experience so the next go-around of maps created can be even more enjoyable experiences.

@ OS

Some do have text messages, and I see what you are saying, but it was intended for each player to download and install the filess. Not doing so would appear to be an issue of people not hearing audios when they were supposed to. Sounds like I need to update the read-me and re-submit or start a known-issues thread or something.

@ molon

3 hours and getting nowhere? Try about 5 hours in the akula, same number of players, various search patterns and comms intervals with no sign of the ffg or 688 and best attempts of avoiding detection of the helo. Also I missed a few comms intervals so any intelligence I could have gathered was behind by 1 hour, giving the enemy 1 hour advantage over us. Next thing you know the 688 did complete his mission. Also try a few more sessions coming up empty handed, by either not finding the 688 again or scaring him off in attacks on the ffg. Also try being the helo and although cripple but still able from the random accident, the ffg goes up in flames literally moments from landing. There is just no telling how that map will ever pan out and to really see that will require more than one dive. Over the times we’ve dived this map, spanning over a month of testing, each session is pretty much a game of chance where nothing is promised or guaranteed and you pretty much are in a position to make the most of what you have to work with.

Been there – done that – and it makes perfect sense to designate a geographical dive point, and even still I could pull it off with up to 100 random dive points, but for each random dive point generated would also include a set of radio tasking for the 688, ffg, and helo so everyone will know where the 688 is going. Honestly I never liked the idea of the ‘vague dive point’ to start with but at the time it was a quick fix to a big issue then, you’ll see where I’m going with this.

Now, switch gears for a moment and consider what could happen when someone who has been driving either one of the US platforms, experiencing different randomly generated dive points(actually knowing the locations of them by now) now decides to drive RU platforms, he is now in a position where he has 1st hand knowledge of some dive points and can very well attempt to exploit that in effort of trying to find the 688. Bottom line is known dive points contribute to predictability. It’s surprising what people would do for cheap wins.

On the other hand, although vague, the ‘dive point’ by means of destination trigger eliminates the predictability, because even with prior knowledge of it now, what can the ‘one time 688 now driving the akula’ skipper do with that bit of information. Although not specific, tasking does say due westerly course, and I think I mentioned in tasking the suggested cruising speeds to at least achieve that in reasonable time, if not it was intended to be mentioned. Now whether the skipper abides to that is his own choice. It would be best to change the wording in tasking if that is something we can get away with. I’ll check the tasking to confirm that.

Honestly after a month of play testing and rotating platforms between 4 other players, this has never came up. I don’t like the fact it’s vague but still it’s informative. In the same token I’m not happy with known goal points that other drivers can jot down on a post-it note and stick it on their monitors either.

As designer I am in the business of doing away with predictability and not contributing to it. And the main reason why it was released as v1.0 is in the event that changes could be made to make the experience more enjoyable while in the same time reasonable and as dynamic as possible. We start increasing predictability we also start decreasing in-game dynamics. In the same token, like any other map, it’s not for everyone, and that is perfectly fine and we were fully aware of that going into the design of the map. I’m willing to make changes if its reasonable to do so, but any sort of change(s) that contribute to predictability won’t fly – sorry.

Sell me on a quick and dirty fix. Honestly this has been haunting me for some time now but I know there is a way around it other than known goal points.

@ Furia

ROE won’t change my friend, otherwise you’ll have another 5 platform DM on your hands. DM style game play was not the reason why I coded and debugged about 600 triggers in an effort to experience something I’ve never experienced before in MP. If DM was the case then I wouldn’t of created this map. There are enough map packs already out to satisfy that style of game play. In fact the only reason why ROE is in place is because it made sense to do so given the circumstances. And considering the mission, it doesn’t make sense for a departing submarine with escort to be weapons hot. Although I have never served in the navy or any other branch of military, common sense tells me there are rules of engagement to abide to and could possibly change based on the situation. And I couldn’t agree with you more on tastes. It boils down to what you the player considers fun and enjoyable.

Based on what you said about 688i detected by akula radar is a result of carelessness on the 688 drivers part and haste on the akulas part IMHO. If so, the 688 had it coming and he deserved it. Sooner or later the 688 skipper will realize he isn’t a surface platform, nor would it make sense to spawn a submarine submerged close to port as well as the 688 can dive below surface much faster than akula ramping up to flank to the surface from 80 meters. Also why would anyone in that position do such a thing while in the same time risk compromising their boat and possibly revealing themselves for a brief sniff??

All anyone would need is a suspicious bearing of where not to navigate to or across and you’ve effectively revealed yourself already at spawn, followed by the helo to confirm the suspicion. Especially in the helo, because guys like me watch ESM more so than any other sensor on the helo. The rest of helo control is simplified more less and doesn’t require a great deal of work to be effective, so it’s not like I’m really busy while in the helo, there is plenty of time on my hands. But emissions as such could still work on the behalf of RU, since US forces would then know not to navigate in your general direction doesn’t mean US wouldn’t navigate into the kilo’s direction either, unless he pulls the same stunt or if US forces want to play politics with ROE. But hey that’s the beauty of games like this, it requires your own personal skill set and judgment and how you run your own platform.