The Bedford Incident

[Furia]

Gentlemen, I am already working an a "different" scenario based on the movie The Bedford incident.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3e/Bedfordincident.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bedford_Incident)

One of my favourite movies :cool:

So since this move events took place during the 60's in the middle of the Cold War, and in Dangerous Waters we do not have such old platforms avalaible I have to take some licenses on this.
We will use an FFG WITH NO HELICOPTER and the most basic Kilo Class sub from Russia.

The area will be Greendland coast with plenty of Ice packs and combining shallow and deep waters. Maybe with some icebers although I have to test that because the last time I used icebergs it was a catastrophe due they were very badly modelled and invisible on surface.
Anyway with or without icebergs, navigation on those waters would be hardzarous specially for the FFG.
Visisbility almost nil with fog and rain, dusk.

The FFG will only have her hull sonar and the buoys she can deploy (outisde the ice) and the TA only on the deep waters. She will have to be extremely carefull not to be caught on the ice packs so navigation would be adjusted to the clear passages within the Ice packs.

The Kilo will be like in the movie, very low on battery so to keep on she must have to snorkel from time to time.
The kilo can navigate below the ice while the FFG cannot.

The scenario is on the early stages so any suggestion or comment is very welcomed.

Initially the ROE would be "Cold War Peace" that is weapons hold unless you fired upon or you receive orders.
The FFG mission is to force the kilo to surface or to snorkel and get a visual on the Kilo This could be goal 1
There will be a hidded and random goal that is that the FFG can receive (or not) orders to engage the kilo and destroy. Thic could be generated at random times or circumstances so players never know when this is going to happen if happen at all.
Goal 3 or victory condition 3 would be that the FFG is able to keep contac with the Kilo for more than 1 hour non stop.

For the Kilo the mission would be to join one merchant tender that would be on those waters (random possition although the Kilo knows his possition and more anchored merchants on the area to cammo this one Tender) in order to repair some system. Kilo must surface or be VISUALLY DETECTED by the Tender and remain there for lets say 10 minutes. (FFG radar could not detect the Kilo depending on the surrounding terrain, the Tender shadow or even in the event the FFG would like to remain ENCOM to hide her presence)

Also the kilo has goal 2 to make picture on some randomly placed building on the coast. Since visibility is reduced, Kilo must have to get near.
The Kilo in some conditions can also receive the order to engage the FFG.
However the main mission for the Kilo would be avoid detection, join the Tender and make picture of the coast facility (The FFG does not know where the Tender or the coast facility are) and leave the area undetected.
Kilo will have to be reallly careful while navigatings those waters with ice, shallow and deep waters and in some cases even inside narrow channels.

My objective is to give players an scenario of stealth, with the "tension atmosphere" brought with the confined waters, the fog, the night and rain and with the threating ice.
Of course I wll add some whales and fishing vessels to make things more interesting.

I have two possible locations on the North Atlantic coast where to play this scenario. I will post some pictures later.
The wather conditions and year season would be such that there are large enough ice packs but some clear paths for the FFG to move around.
However the FFG could not move all around at pleasure but will have to navigate searching her way very carefully since visibility would be reduced and if an Ice Pack is rammed she can be trapped or damaged.
She cannot choose direct routes since she will have to adapt to existing clear waters channels.
If any of you have played my ALEUTIAN OPERATIONS scenario, you already know what I mean.
I want the players to feel Cold War tension and also to make them work their Sonar suits and TMA to the maximum.
Detection should not be easy, tracking should not be easy even torpedo warfare on those waters should not be easy.
Initially this are the conditions I have in mind but I am accepting other suggestions.

Sea State 1
Dusk
Rain
Cloud level 30 mts
Bottom Mud
Sound profile: Surface duct

Both vessels start at random locations (dynamic ones since random could place them traped on the ice from start) and in all cases out of detection range.

Feel the tension? :tongue:
As in Cold War you know the other is your enemy but you cannot fire unless you are fired upon, however at any minute the other may receive an order to fire on you so you must be ready to counterfire at any minute. Maybe that order would arrive or not. On the meantime you must carry on your mission and detect the enemy and if possible avoid to be detected yourself.
I imagine as FFG driver I would like to track the Kilo and try to remain undetected myself. Difficult but possible.

Does this scenario sound interesting for you?
Your ideas and suggestions are very welcomed :feedback:

Anyway to those of you that have not seen this movie I highly recomend it. :cool:

[Furia]

I think I have found a nice Operations area with enough ice, agood combination of deep and shallow waters and with a lot of inlets where the sub can seek shelter.
The map shows more or less the ice pack distribution as you can see Ice will surely be a factor specially for the FFG.

http://menorca.infotelecom.es/~raulurbina/FFG/Bedford%20Ops%20area.JPG

As I mentioned visbility would be very reduced. I hope this gives the proper "atmosphere"

http://menorca.infotelecom.es/~raulurbina/FFG/FFG-fog.JPG


http://menorca.infotelecom.es/~raulurbina/FFG/FFG-fog2.JPG


This is the Kilo alongside the Tender inside a small inlet that protected them for the FFG radar

http://menorca.infotelecom.es/~raulurbina/FFG/Kilo&Tender.JPG

[Molon Labe]

It's an interesting idea.

Of course, I only really get going when the tactical details start coming out, and this is something I haven't attempted before so I don't know what the crucial factors will be.

I'll be happy to tear it apart once you tell us more. :biggrin:

[OneShot]

Sounds interesting ... certainly a map for either just 2 people or something where multistation gaming might come in handy.

Aside from that I have to agree with ML. At this point the concept sounds good ... does it work ? We will have to see further down the road.

Cheers
OS

[Furia]

If you both think it is an interesting idea, this is enough for me to keep on with the concept.
Yes it is designed as a 1 vs 1 or as Oneshoot said , maybe a great scenario for multistation.

I will need a lot of testing with the sound detction curves since I want such a sound profile that makes detection either from FFG to sub or Sub to FFG not very easy although not impossible.
Lets say that at moderate speeds none should be able to detect the other at distances greater than 3 to 6 NM with passive means.

What do you think about the Victory conditions I stated for both platforms?
Boring? Interesting even if for random reasons the fire order never arrives?
Does the fire order ALWAYS should arrive or we will be happy with the "tension" of not knowing if it will arrive and whom will receive it first if the sub or the FFG?

[Molon Labe]

I am a little concerned that there's not a lot going on. I wouldn't want to be in a match with only one player for too long without there being any contact or shooting. So for me, what might matter is whether you can accomplish what you want in the timespan of a conventional match. If this is going to be one of the "long" missions, I would want more than 2 players around.

[subb]

This is right up my alley, for these reasons.

1.. As we all probably know I’m more of in favor of cold war conditions by default which could possibly lead to war, where choices made vary the chance of war. But truthfully after learning about the infrastructure of Total War, I’ve taken on a change of heart. Maps like these cover the entire spectrum of naval warfare in my book.

2.. I would like to see more missions that require use of stealth to complete missions combined with welfare of ownship and reaching safe distance to ‘win’.as well as random issues or accidents, such as the kilo on low batts that could affect the chances of your success.

3.. By default my mission for 5 platforms was a large chunk to chew on with hardly any planning from the very beginning and novice skill level in editing. But now that things have changed I’m heading in the direction of making maps for smaller amount of players for those times where you have people sitting idle and wanting to play something, but not enough people are around. By you making this map will also address this need and give drivers something do to when the head count is low, as well as the multistation feature will be available, making it fun and enjoyable regardless the number of players.

You might as well make this map, it will be played I’m sure :wink:

[Furia]

@Molon. As you know I am more tilted to let players define how the map would be fought rather than force them to follow a strict storyline.
On this scenario steath will mean it all so both platforms would be close enough for detection if the other plays "stupid" and makes a lot of noise.
On the other hand both players will have their hands full.
However I will surely keep in mind your suggestion when I complete this scenario. I do not want people bored or having a long mission with nothing to do.
So far we keep only 2 playable platforms. This si the way it is in the movie and I think it is a good match for two capable skippers.
However I think this would be a great map for multistation.

Imagine yourself as the Kilo driver. Map start and you get a radio message about the location of the Tender and the location of your reconeisance target.
You have no clue where the FFG is although she is not much far away.
About the Tender you have to decide if you come alongside or not.
My idea is that the Kilo will start with about 30 to 40% batteries and with some non major system inoperative (have not decided wich one yet)
The Kilo player must decide when it is safe for snorkel to start reloading the batteries, he has no clue where the FFG is (we suppose the FFG skipper is smart and he is in ENCOM) Snorkeling would force the sub skipper to keep a periscope watch since he can run into an ice pack and destroy the snorkel :biggrin:
He must navigate to the reconeisance area and make the picture of the target (The FFG does not know this).
Time is against the Kilo. Surely the FFG skipper would be dropping hundreds of buoys covering a lot of area so the sooner the Kilo finish her mission and leaves the area unnoticed the better.
Anyway the Kilo skipper has the option to proceed to the Tender and repair his damaged systems. Note I will be generous and will allow the tender to fix any damage of the Kilo everytime the Kilo visit him so if you get some damage from the Ice you can always get a fast repair there. :wink:
if you happen to detect the FFG you will not know if the FFG has already you on his TMA table or even if she has received the order to fire on you.
Maybe you will receive such order as well although is more unlikely since you are on the NATO waters, but the possibility exists.

This is not going to be a "fast" map for people that want to have a lot of action, but will surely not be a map where "nothing happens" in 30 minutes.

I am thinking in additional taskings and orders for both platforms like a Russian Spy pilot downed (like Gary Powers) that must be rescued.
The Kilo knows the exact possition, the FFG just a general area of search.
Of course this may force them both to converge....well this is just an idea I am cooking now.... more about that later.
So far I has discovered that the initial sound conditions I wanted to use were not good. I placed the FFG at 2 NM from the Kilo and even at full stop, with the TA fully deployed and severla buoys on the water, I could not make the Kilo at all, just a really faint trace on the TA but that disapeared real fast. The kilo was making 4 knots.
I was expecting not a good contact but surely "something".
I will keep testing.
Maybe the rain is playing a factor as well.
Now I am testing "bottom limited" profile and have moved a bit the operations area because the initial one had too much ice (more than it is shown on the map)

I want an intense map for sonar operators and TMA and also a map that give the players some room to decide how to carry on the mission.
With all of you imput I hope the map gets exciting instead boring.

@Subb. I am happy you like the map concept and idea.

I am also in favour of this kind of maps, mostly because we already have avalaible a lot of the other kind of fast maps :smile:
Factors like Stealth, proper navigation and as you say the welfare of your ship should be important on an scenario.

I also think it is important to have maps for dedicated and capable skippers that can be played with small numbers of people. Sometimes it is not easy to find skilled players and a lot of the good maps require a minimum of 5 players to make they fun or playable the way they were designed. So I think this one could cover the gap for an intense map just for 2 players or multistation.

[Molon Labe]

Hey now, I never said I wanted a scripted storyline!

I'm just saying I wouldn't want to spend an afternoon at the computer without anything happening. If you've made sure there's more to it, then it should be fine.

[Furia]

Hey now, I never said I wanted a scripted storyline!

I'm just saying I wouldn't want to spend an afternoon at the computer without anything happening. If you've made sure there's more to it, then it should be fine.

Sorry I didn't meant you said that. Just trying to explain my idea and what I wanted the mission to look like.

By the way I am having real troubles with the sound detection ranges on this scenario.
Sound is really poor, do not know why.
With mud either using botton limited or surface duct, the Kilo at 7 knots can pass at less than one mile of a buoy and give no trace of contact. only the hot buoy that got hot whne the sub ia about 2 miles from the buoy.
I am testing now with Rock as floor and got better resoults although still hard to detect.

I will post here later an basic scenario sample so you guys can evaluate the possible sound conditions and tell me your oppinion and suggestions.

[Furia]

I need some imput here.
I am not very sure about the sound conditions for this scenario.
We are supposed to have not the latest on detection gear to make it more like older equipment from the Cold War.
However we need some reasonable detection Range.

For some reason sound conditions seem to be degraded here.
The Kilo at 7 knots does not get any frecuency line on a VLAD deep buoy until she is less than 1500 yards. Normal?

I am enclosing two test scenarios based on the different accoustic conditions and on the operations area I am creating this scenario.
You can play them as FFG or Kilo.
I have enclosed some Radio messages that inform when the other platform has been detected.
The test scenarios are small to test and you will need only a few minutes to see what I mean.
The FFG and the Kilo at facing each other at about 8 NM. The FFG is making 5 knots while the Kilo is at 360 feet making 7 knots. Between them there is a sonobuoy field where the Kilo must pass through.

The operations area is supposed to be around 25 to 35 NM around where you can see the platforms on the map, maybe a bit bigger. Still have to decide it.

Please test this scenarios and let me know ehat you think about the sound conditions and your reccomendations wich one is more adequate.

[Furia]

One of the initial taskings for the soviet sub was to make "recon" and take a pericope picture of a ground installation.
After several hours to create working triggers that make a random tasking of which installation is going to be reccon (making a selection of one out of 6) and at the same time releasing Radio orders to the sub to tell the skipper which land installation he must reccon, I just discovered that the TAKE PHOTO trigger does not work.
Not sure if it is because the low visibility (Although you can see clearly the installation on the scope) or because they are ground installations instead "platforms" or as I am afraid this is a bug related to Patch 1.04 because if I remeber right, this trigger worked nice on past.
Well whatever the reason, I cannot complete one of the original taskings for the sub. :damnit:

Now considering we are in the mid of the Cold War and that I wanted to reproduce the Bedford Incident movie where the red sub was on a reccon mission of possible SSBN firing areas what would be a good option?

We cannot add a US SSBN to be located because the SSBN will play a role I do not want besides it can locate the possition of the Kilo and inform the FFG.

I am working on 2 possibilities.

Satelite search. Lets imagine a Soviet SPUTNIK have landed on that area by accident like on the ICE STATION ZEBRA movie :biggrin: and the Soviet Sub is tasked to recover it. Using the same random triggers I had for the periscope picture orders I can tell the soviet captainj to go to some area, locate and recover the satelite of course remaining undetected.
The FFG will have no clue about the Kilo mission.
How to recover the satelite? now comes the tricky part. satelite must stay on ground os I only have two options. Deliver Spec Ops to it or simply force the sub to stay near the satelite for a period of time until it is considered recovered.

Keep the Reccon idea but since the Take photo does not work, force the sub to get real close (1 NM) to the objective to make the picture and remain there for some time.

So far the scenario is at this stage now.

The waters are very tricky to navigate. The Ice and the shallows force players to be extremely careful. This time careful and safe navigation is going to be a major factor.
Sound conditions make that unless the submarine speeds off or has to snorkel near the FFG, he will remain undetected.

The submarine starts mission with about 60 to 70% battery and some "minor" damage done by the ice. The Captain can choose to pay a visit to a friendly Submarine Tender camouflaged on those waters (Random location of the tender and other similar platforms on the area to disguise location) and fix those damages while recharging battery.
Submarine captain mission would be remain undetected and either retrive the Sputnik or reccon the shore installations (to be determined yet) and afterwards leave the area. The Soviet Sub is at Peace Tiem ROE and weapons is not authorized unless fire upon or a Highquarters order is received.

The FFG captain is tasked for ASW patrol peace time ROE.
He will receive some intel about some POSSUB contact on his area and depending on the Satelite or Shore thing maybe some extra tasking, for instance we can force the FFG to try to search for the satelite visually and she may even recover the Sputnik for the US. Surely the CIA guys would love that :tongue: That would be a very hard tasking since visibility is limited and the FFG will have no clear information about where to look at.
The FFG would be mainly tasked to find the Kilo and keep contact for some time while when possible remaining undetected herself.
I am working os some "secret" triggers that will give both platforms "permission to engage" the other.
Since the Kilo is on NATO waters, it is logic that he has less chances to receive such orders, but you never know :cool:
On some conditions "that I hope players are not able to identify easily" the ROE may change and one platform may receive the tasking to destroy the other.
Of course the other platform is free to fire if fired upon.
If such orders are not received, any weapons release would be the cause of mission ending and victory be give to the non offending platform automatically.

Imputs , ideas, suggestions?
:feedback:

[Molon Labe]

If you want the kilo to snort and be able to get away with it, definitely use BL and not SD.

As a matter of personal taste, I prefer scenarios where stealth is a means to an end. Stealth seems to be the end in itself here.

[Furia]

Yes I am already using Bottom Limited.

Regarding the Stealth, maybe I did not expresed it properly on my previous post (just re reading it now)
Stealth is a bonus but the Red Sub can still win the mapa nicely even if being discovered provided he makes the recon/satellite mission and accomplish to leave the area undetected at that very moment. I mean he could have been located before but as long as he is able to break contact and leave the area he can win.The thick Ice pack where the FFG cannot transit but the sub can pass below while submerged will surely help.

How do the satelite or Reccon mission sound to you?

[Molon Labe]

I think the "sneak around the patrolling ship/sub" type missions have been played out in SP. We've been doing it in campaigns since 688I H-K, usually in the form of special forces insertions and extractions. Putting a human player in the defending ship makes it a little more interesting, I suppose. But I feel sorry for the player who is basically on garrison duty.

I am definitely a patient player that enjoys sneaking around, but I do need some sort of reward for doing so...usually in the form of killing someone. Hence my title on this board. =)

[Furia]

I finally sorted out the Persicope picture issue and now it works nice.
The Soviet Captain will receive a random tasking to make a picture of a shore installation. He will receive also a radio message with the tasking.
Everytime the match is played the tasking would be different and in any case the FFG player would have any idea about it.

About the Fire/no fire issue I understand your point but if I want this scenario stand as a Cold War scenario we cannot make it as a weapons free one or as one you know for certain it will be weapons free.
I am working however in a solution to have more "excitement" and that would make tha under certain conditions the weapons hold restriction is lifted.
However is important that players do not look at this scenario as "kill" one since the Objectives of it in no case would be the sinking of the other platform. The sinking could be a side objective but the main objective for the Soviet sub would be to reccon the shore installation and escape with the picture outside the Ops area.
The Victory condition for the FFG would be to locate and track the sub for a period of time.
However The FFG could receive orders to fire on the Soviet sub if certain circusmtances are meet (I will keep wich ones secret :wink: ) and of course the Soviet sub would be weapons free if fired upon.
As far as my testing goes, navigation and detection is this waters are extremely difficult either for sub and FFG and be sure the skkipers would have their hands full. Also Torpedo warfare is not that easy on this waters.
I take note of your point about having some "reward" for the hard work and I hope I can make it interesting.